Supercharging AND Turbocharging

The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
Warpspeed,

Forgive my ignorance, I have never seen a screw blower in the flesh.

Could a decompression port/valve be integrated to reduce power consumption during cruise? Or does the layout preclude this...
 
Warpspeed - So doesn't the drop off in vol eff of the SC mean that it will become a restriction to the TC? I can see the turbo improving the effective VE of the SC just like it does for the engine but still means it's a restriction.

I'm certainly not dissing twin charging..but i see it more for small capacity engines where you want the SC to fill the boost hole a large turbo will have.....and as already decribed would try to have separate intakes for TC and SC.

No shortage of bottom end grunt with my TT setup :)
 
As long as the supercharger is adding to the boost pressure supplied by the turbo, it is not going to offer any restriction to flow.

Put it this way, if the turbo is producing 12psi of boost, and there is 13psi of boost pressure coming out of the supercharger, it may not be adding very much, but it is certainly not restricting either.

The pressures just add together. As long as both turbo and supercharger are generating positive pressures, neither is a restriction to the other. Only negative numbers are a problem.

The simple fact is, that any supercharger that is large enough and driven fast enough to produce positive boost an engine all by itself, is not going to be restrictive if you do nothing more than add a turbo to it.
 
Adressing several points

A twin screw has internal compression, therefore is high efficiency. Have a look at the compressor/throttle configuration diagrams HERE
Look at the throttle in the upstream position. On cruise & small throttle openings what is there to be compressed? How much work does the compessor do to "compress" the the vacuum? When the presure ratio across the S/C is 0 (the bypass open) and with vacuum everywhere below the throttle there is (effectively) nothing there to be compressed and no work done.

My main point with the Autorotors is they do have the efficiency of a T/C and the low rpm boost of a positive displacement S/C. In fact better low rpm boost than a roots unit.

Following on logically, why add cost & complexity and take up valuable space with a twincharge setup. Understandable if there was no alternative. But it is available and has been available for many years now.

I realise than there will always be people that will still be trying to get twincharging to work for their own reasons, but from a purely technical/engineering PoV it's redundant.

I know it's an impossible thing to do, but I'll bet that stockymcstock would be wondering why he bothered if he ripped out the twincharge and replaced it with a correctly sized Autorotor.

BTW, the diagram is from the supporting doco included with an Autorotor OA424.
:)
 
Ha-ha Greybeard...

You make some very valid points with which I cannot disagree, but let me add a few extra ideas of my own to it.

Firstly, moving the throttle upstream of a supercharger has a several effects. Firstly, (hypothetically) without using an air bypass, the supercharger would be acting as a high powered vacuum pump working very hard against an almost closed throttle most of the time. The supercharger would certainly not be unloaded under those conditions.

But as you quite rightly point out, an air bypass will unload the supercharger when under vacuum, particularly a screw supercharger when configured that way with an up stream throttle.

But an up stream throttle is sometimes not a very desirable solution for another completely different reason.

The further the throttle is placed away from the engine, the more stored air volume there is in the pipework that has to fill and empty at varying pressure with every throttle movement. This can make throttle response noticeably worse. While it will probably work fine if the supercharger is bolted directly onto the inlet manifold, it will work less well on an inline engine with the necessarily long induction pipework between the combined throttle/supercharger, and the inlet manifold. Forget all about using any sort of intercooler with an up stream throttle, the car would be totally undrivable. Been there done that <grin>.

And any high boost supercharger project absolutely must run an intercooler, or you are just not serious.

A down stream throttle is far more desirable for both throttle response and most often for ease of installation. And you can run a massive intercooler with fairly long pipework without any significant degradation of throttle response. So, down stream throttle should always be first choice if it can be done that way, but it may not always be possible.

All of this depends so very much on the type of engine and type of supercharger, and is it going to be intercooled ? and generally, what you are trying to achieve and under what constraints. There are a lot of interrelated details that need to be very carefully thought through to suit each particular installation. There is no "best way" to go about this.

Now the question about volumetric efficiency arises. While I agree that a screw supercharger approaches very closely to the theoretical ideal of the perfect positive displacement supercharger, it is still not perfect, and even less so when mounted onto a real engine.

Heat soak, and the resulting inlet air density drops from hot duct work into the supercharger can reduce top end mass airflow more than many people realize. Heat is the greater enemy than actual measured pressure drop as far as supercharger inlet air density goes. One percent air density drop for each three degrees Celsius of additional temperature rise is the number.

Once the air density going into a positive displacement supercharger falls, nothing can get it back. If relative air density drops to 90%, (only 30C rise) then your 100% volumetric efficiency supercharger becomes 90% real volumetric efficiency.

When the whole installation is being cooked with 85 Celsius air from the radiator, and toasted by the exhaust system, feeding cold dense air into the supercharger is far from easy. A cold air intake going through scorching hot under bonnet pipework to the supercharger intake is only a partial solution to this problem.

The advantage that an intercooled turbo has over a supercharger is that boost pressure sensing right at the engine ensures that as the flow and density losses all mount up, the turbo just works a bit harder to keep the intercooled air density up to the engine. Flow or density losses into a turbo do not matter quite so much. The wastegate just closes a bit, and the turbo spins faster.

A supercharger can never compensate for density losses at it's inlet in quite the same way as a turbo can. The bottom line really is, that it is always a lot easier to get high top end airflow and horsepower with a turbo than it is with a supercharger on a practical road car that suffers from typical high under bonnet heat problems.

Not saying it cannot be done, but on an everyday road vehicle, a wastegated and intercooled suitably large turbo will beat a supercharger at the extreme top end every time. It may be worse in every other respect (lag, boost threshold etc..), but for sheer top end airflow and power the intercooled turbo is king.

You can build a supercharged engine without these thermal problems by sticking the supercharger up out through the bonnet, and using a bug catcher type air intake. So theoretically it is not a problem. But on a road legal car it is never quite so simple.

We can argue theory round and round in circles, but really an Opcon is a superb supercharger, and I would certainly never try to discourage anyone from fitting one.

But twincharging has it's place too, especially for the more budget conscious do it yourself adventurous types.

More and more people are becoming interested in twincharging, and I have yet to hear of anyone that has completed a twincharge project and not been absolutely delighted with the results. Many of these guys, like myself have been turbocharging and supercharging engines for decades, and wish to try something a bit different.
 
Yes all out power and efficiency is the win for T/C. But as a daily driver it will be a top end pig. All my discussion is based on a real drivable road car. An engine spending most of its time above 5,000rpm will not be in a road car. T/C is an absolute no brainer for a track car

All the points about cold air intake etc should be a given for anyone with the slightest inkling for doing something about performance enhancements. So I assume that anyone here doing anything involving boost would be doing this. I'm also assuming intercooling by default. In my case I have both cool air & +ve pressure intake.

I can't comment on any response issues with throttle body location as I've never been in a position to trial both configurations on same or similar setup. There's an awful lot of variables in either configuration.

Autorotor shows either config in the diagram to be acceptable. Obviously it (diagram) can't imply anything about intake tract length & volume, throttle size and all the other system variables.

Any T/C or S/C or Twincharge setup can be done very well or very badly. So in the comparisions between systems one would assume an optimal setup for the sake of comparison of the response of the comlete systems.

There is still 30-40kPa of absolute pressure in the manifold while cruising...
Yes there will allways be some air mass flowing, but there is only a very small amount work of work done for internal compression. With 0 P/R across the compressor the compressor doesn't have to "push" any air mass through the intake system. This is the case with both throttle locations.

I recall reading somewhere (in the doco) that the downstream is suggested for "race" applications and upstream for "street". Unfortunately I can't find it ATM.
:)
 
My current everyday road car is a very ordinary low boost turbo these days, but I know exactly what you mean about peaky oversized turbos being completely impractical, and I could not agree with you more.

What I was hinting at, was that a monster turbo compressor fitted between your cold air intake and supercharger inlet can put the top end airflow on steroids, heat soak problem or no heat soak problem. And the supercharger provides all the instant response and low rpm torque and flexibility you have come to reasonably expect.

The throttle response question can be a fairly serious issue, especially if a manual gearbox is to be used. The problem is not so much throttle application as many people intuitively seem to think, but during throttle release. The engine has to use up all that pressurized stored air in the pipework, plenum, and probably the intercooler, (all located after the closed throttle). It can take a surprisingly long time for the revs to fall off, as X psi of stored boost pressure has to drop to maybe 20 inches of vacuum.

Release the throttle, pop the clutch and the tachometer sits up there still at redline for maybe a full second or two!!! I am not kidding, it can be that bad. It feels like the engine has a five ton flywheel when you back off. Changing gear is no fun at all, and it just feels totally horrible and all wrong to drive.

So for anyone planning to supercharge and fit a large intercooler, save yourself a LOT of work and grief, and leave the factory throttle in it's original location if you possibly can.

While going to a full individual throttle body induction system is a bit of an extreme overkill measure for supercharging, the race engine builders definitely have the right idea. Adding ten litres (or more) of pressurized pipework and intercooler end tanks between throttle and engine is definitely not going to be an improvement.

If you think ten litres of total pipe volume is a bit over the top, try filling your intercooler and pipework with water. The thing will probably swallow a couple of gallons easily without spilling a drop, and still thirst for more. All this has to be experienced to be believed.
 
Between reading the thread here and on Eng-tips, your informative posts have got me very interested in compounding, Warpspeed! I see it being exceptionally useful for very high boost generation.

A couple of comments: In terms of sizing/selecting turbocharger, would one way to think of it as turbocharging the supercharged engine? IE say you were planning on running 7psi (PR = 1.5) supercharged on a 4.0L, then selecting a turbo based on a 6.0L motor would be one way to think of it in terms of spool right?

One thing I would like to work out in my mind is how to roughly calculate the optimal contribution from turbocharging and supercharging for peak power - ie to take it to extremes you could be running 7psi (PR = 1.5) from the turbo into say 22psi (PR = 2.5) s/c for a total of PR 3.75, ~ 40psi... or you could run say 22psi (PR 2.5) turbocharged into 7psi (PR 1.5) supercharged for the same 3.75/40psi. I guess in the first example you have more mechanical loss driving the sc but much lower backpressure and vice versa in the second. It obviously depends on the various efficiencies of the sc and turbo, but it would be interesting to have some ballpark figures to go off.

You can I guess also run pretty big duration cams with more of a bonus on twincharging too, right (compared with turbo)? How significant do you consider this is?

Regards,

Nick
 
Yes Nick, in general terms, the turbo would probably see little or no real difference between being fitted onto a low boost supercharged four litre engine and a six litre normally aspirated engine. It just feels the increased engine capacity, and resultant increase in mass flow, and acts accordingly.

How best to set all this up depends entirely on the type of vehicle and the application. Once the supercharger and turbo are sized about right, you can fiddle with the supercharger drive ratio, and turbine a/r to get pretty much whatever engine boost and torque characteristics suit the car.

It is probably the ultimate antilag system that will hurt neither the engine or the turbo, and there are no NOS bottles to keep refilling. It is also very easy to tune, and especially pleasant to drive.

I guess the place to begin is figuring out what is a realistic power goal in terms of peak engine revs and boost pressure required to achieve it. Use peak power airflow to size the turbo. All the air has to go through the compressor regardless of what else happens.

Then size the supercharger to produce about a third of the total final expected boost pressure when unaided by the turbo. This will rise to give roughly about equal pressure ratios across both turbo and supercharger when both are hooked up together. That will definitely get you started.

Then dyno or road test the engine and see what happens, especially noting turbine inlet pressure and boost pressure. Once you see what is actually happening, change whatever needs to be changed to get the engine characteristics you want.

You can probably reach full boost by 1500 rpm if that is what you wish. Or you can have more top end power with less engine range. It is all entirely up to you. But it will definitely be vastly more flexible, responsive, and drivable than any turbo engine of similar power.
 
im new here
an wow this is a lot of thinking, i dont know much about anything but i read most of this thread, it sounds like the s/c could push air through the turbo but the turbo could not pull air through the s/c so the bipass is a good idea. And by doing this your trying to get the best of both worlds and it sounds like it would work.
remember i dont know much, you should probable do the opposite of what i think.
 
Any experts out there can recommend this combination?

* 4.7 Liter Iron block
* M112 Supercharger with stock 2003 Cobra pulley size
* Which single turbo?

Fianll hp goal is 800-1000 rwhp. Experts?
 
As above, if you think of it as turbocharging a supercharged engine (sc'd engine just acts like bigger displacement) then just size a turbo for that HP goal on the motor...

IE 4.7L with eaton M112 (flow map here - http://www.eatonperformance.com/superchargers/M112-performance-map.html )

Running (say) pressure ratio of 1.5 on the SC (which, unturbocharged would give 7.5psi boost), then the motor as far as the turbo is concerned acts like a 7.05L V8 - so size the turbo for a 7L V8 and 800-1000 HP.

Well that is how I would do it anyway.

Nick
 
O/k let's assume 1,000 BHP at the wheels.

That is around 1,176 Hp at the crank.

Maybe 1,764 CFM of airflow going into the turbo, that is 2997, say 3,000 cubic metres of air per hour.

Looking at the Eaton flow map for the M112, the supercharger may have a volumetric flow capacity of (guess ??) 1,000 cubic metres per hour, when driven at a sensible speed. So the incoming air will need to be increased to about three times atmospheric density to reach your power goal.

So the turbo compressor requirements will be something like 1800 CFM at 30 psi boost pressure assuming you run 100% efficient intercooling before the supercharger. Probably the boost going into the supercharger will need to be closer to 35 or 40psi to get sufficient mass flow.

As I cannot find a flow map that reaches such a high pressure ratio, I cannot suggest a suitable turbo.

Really you need a supercharger at least three times as large such as a GM 6V-71 or something similar. The M112 is just far too small to pass nearly 1,200 Hp worth of air. You could always try driving the supercharger at well over 30,000 rpm, but you have already said that you don't wish to change the drive pulley.

I wish you luck.
 

Attachments

  • 27_1.jpg
    27_1.jpg
    30.4 KB · Views: 2
With 35-40 psi going into the SC, with a pressure ratio of 1.5 on the SC, that's 52.5-60 psi into the engine!?!?!?

Something is not right here. Based on what we see with 2JZGTE, you should be able to get 1000 RWHP with just a large single turbo on the 4.7L at just 30 psi. Adding a SC, you would still need a turbo of same flow capacity, but I would expect the pressure ratio required to actually drop (since the SC also multiplies the pressure, it will inject the air from the turbo at a 50% higher rate than the engine). Adding the SC also gets you the much better boost response (instance boost from the SC and much higher exhaust energey to spool the turbo).
 
Are you telling me that simply bolting a larger turbo onto a completely stock standard 2JZ will enable anyone to reach a thousand reliable horsepower, without any other modification?

The fuel system alone is going to fall well short, plus it will require different than the original factory emission cams, probably a slightly lowered compression ratio, vastly increased intercooler capacity, suitable reprogrammed engine management and a decent larger exhaust system, at the very least.

Sure it is possible to reach that sort of power level, many people have achieved that. But a great many of the engine support systems will need some very serious thought and planning.

This guy expects 1,200 Hp and he is not even prepared to change a pulley. Do you really think the whole plan sounds feasible ?

I am sure it could be done, but a great many things other than just fitting a large turbo to a completely standard engine will be required to raise engine power perhaps four times.
 
Ok, so I'm just checking your numbers here (pinch of salt taken with the estimates and all that) but it does look like the M112 is too small for the motor. If you assume that you can only drive it to 13 500 rpm safely then on the rough estimates I've done that is a belt ratio of ~1.9 for max engine rpm of 7000.

On the *rough* simulation I did that meant that the SC was generating ~4psi boost for a pressure ratio of 1.3 which is pretty low. It was flowing about 550 CFM at this point for around 400hp.

If we say you need ~1700 CFM for 1200hp then scaling this up you need a pressure ratio of ~3.0, or 28psi boost going into the SC.

So 1700CFM and 3.0 pressure ratio looks ok on a Garrett GT60 compressor flow map, or 2x 54 trim GT40's.

Cheers

Nick
 


Top