Supercharging AND Turbocharging

The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
Warpspeed,

The only thing I pionted out is that you're talking compund charging now and not the normal way of boost charging. different rules apply and different things will hapen in a compound system. yet I don't hear anyone talking about those things... why?

Offcourse I agree with you that things will work,

@ london, YES: VERY VERY BIG and efficient charge coolers after the supercharger.

grtz Thomas
 
@ london, YES: VERY VERY BIG and efficient charge coolers after the supercharger.

grtz Thomas

Have you got any examples/pics of this, I can't figure out how you cool cool after the SC when it is bolted directly on top of the engine or do the SC's get moved to another location?

Would it be sensible to cool after the TC and then cool again after the SC?
 
Hey London,

"Would it be sensible to cool after the TC and then cool again after the SC?"

That would not be sensible, that would be a must on a compound set-up unless your feeding a big bad tractorpulling diesel which is throttle-fueled

think of ramming 90degreesC of compressed air into the second compressor to compres it even further buy ratio 1.5, the volume gets far smaller the Mass goes up and heat is generated, and lots of it to get the Mass flux even higher for the same volume of air you need to cool it down, if you're only IC would be after the turbo and that would be 100% efficient you'd still be feeding the engine with 90dC+ (200dF+) airtemp which at that presure ratio would melt a piston in seconds.

let's asume 1500hp is wanted and we go by GM's rule that for every 100hp you'd need about 150CFm of air.

15X150=2250CFm of air
delta T is 90-20= 70 degrees (20 = ambient temp)

ideal law of gasses says (the rulebook) 90 degrees air has a density of 0.969 kg/m^3 so I'll recalculate all CfeetM's to CmeterM
2250CFm=63.712 CMm

we're trying to find M * T *cP = ???kj of energy stored

Mass of the air is 63.712 * 0.969 = 61.736 KG of air per Minute
Delta T = 70
rulebook cP for air is 1

so there is { 61.736 * 70 * 1 }= 4321.6 KiloJoule of heat energy stored in the amount of air needed,
TWICE because first the turbo get's this temp and after that the SC will do the same again.

4321.6Kj : 60sec = 72KW of power per charging stage

so Yes intercoolers are very very important for this sort of set-up.

in fact this calculation is the simplyfied version because when temp goes down presure ratio will also slightly go down Nasa has so nice maths info of this fenomenon called isentropic expansion.

here it is (just click through the safety screen it works)
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/////airplane/compexp.html

so Now I'm off going to get some coffee since it's only 6:30 over here.

for the charge air water coolers after the SC, when it's finished I'll post the pics, still in solidworks drawing stage.

regards Thomas
 
I'd think doing a conventional intercooler after the turbo would work well, and if you're doing twin turbo's, it would be an especially good way to combine their outputs. Then fogging some MW either into, or just after the SC would be an effective alternative to another intercooler, unless you could fit a small Laminova type just inside the manifold, as Striker is doing. Anything else would probably result in hood closure issues.

The only problem I see with adding intercoolers and piping is that these are just more restrictions that the poor SC has to pull its air through, and I think it's still generally accepted that restrictions on the suction of a pump, compressor, etc. cause more loss of performance than restrictions on the discharge.

In gas compression, there are usually intercoolers after every stage of compression (assuming the interstage ratios warrant cooling), but it quickly becomes a piping nightmare with 3 and 4 stages.
 
hey cribbj

waterinjection is also a nice option, but with the laminova's I'm using I'm a little afraid of water condensating on the fins of the IC cores, that would be bad I think... so I won't go that far. there's also the option of injecting water below the IC in the short intake runners to the head, but it seems that the water and fuel molecules will interfere on atomisation which would then have to take place in the same amount of space, do you know anything about this?

I will mount the SC's on the sides of the engine, but one could also plant a bigger single on top of the manifold IC stuff i'm planning.

@ david are you still positive about the install, and what way would you go? conventional or compound?

grtz Thomas
 
Striker,

Are you talking to me? It would be alot easier if I can slap on a M112 along with a GT40R and call it a day. However, according few experts above this might not provide enough hp for my taste. So I might have to go back to the twin turbo idea.
 
yep was talking to you!

ditch 2 big turbo's on there side by side, twin IC's with waterspray, and have some nice cams ground. things should be doable if the bottomend stays in one piece.

grtz Thomas

remember BMW megatron did 1400+hp on 1.5L cars. anything is possible
 
Interesting article in the SAE AEI 2006 Engine Special Report on the VW twincharged 4 banger for the Golf GT: http://1.1.1.1/815503472/801775600T...org/automag/techbriefs/01-2006/1-114-1-17.pdf

After you've read the first report about the Lexus 2GR-FSE, skip past the Ford 3.5 motor, and go to the 3rd report, which is about the twincharged VW motor.

I'm interpreting their technical description as having the supercharger blowing its compressed air into the turbo, however the turbo also has an air intake which opens once it is spooled up - somewhere after 2400 RPM. in this way, the supercharger can be declutched and the turbo provides all the boost for the midrange and top end. Looks like the supercharger is only being used at low rpm - exactly where turbos are weak due to lack of exhaust flow.

I was amazed to see they're getting 2.5 bar (36) psi of boost into this motor with this combo at only 1500 RPM, and I'm wondering if that's absolute or gauge? Surely it must be absolute?

It's interesting and encouraging that an OEM is trying this - it certainly gives the concept credibility. Wonder if they'd use the same arrangement if they put it on a Vee motor?

Has anyone in the UK or Europe driven or seen one of these? Apparently they've been out for a year or so?
 
Cribbj, that is exactly the setup i had designed for my old 3S proj with a big TO4 and the SC12 out of an early MR2. Had the plumbing mocked up and everything but it went so well just turboed that never finished it.

I'm currently toying with the Jag XKR twin intercooled M112 setup i have onto my TTUZ in the Celica. Space is the big issue so if retro fitting the SC requires too much messing a round with what's already in there i'll can it. This setup would be compund with the TTs feeding the SC but the intake charge would still pass thru my current FMIC before the SC, then goes thru the twin air/water ICs of the Jag setup and finally gets a shot of water injection as that's already plumbed up....that enough cooling you reckon ? :)
 
Hehe, you mean you're not going to put a mister setup on the FMIC too? Shame on you for forgetting that one ;-)

Hope you'll monitor your interstage and final temps going into the motor and let everybody know how well it all works?
 
I guess i already know how the interstage works as that would be the current inlet temps from the TT setup :) Works bloody well :)

I'll be really interested to see how the SC copes with the flow increase and if current peak hp is maintained or drops
 
That. would. be. very. nice....... :D

That would make things very nice and simple and very neat........ heck, even just nicking the a/w intercooler packaging and slapping in your own SC would be handy.

Along with a couple of some nice big ass turbos, I see a beautiful thing, me wants.
 
Interesting article in the SAE AEI 2006 Engine Special Report on the VW twincharged 4 banger for the Golf GT: http://1.1.1.1/815503472/801775600T...org/automag/techbriefs/01-2006/1-114-1-17.pdf

After you've read the first report about the Lexus 2GR-FSE, skip past the Ford 3.5 motor, and go to the 3rd report, which is about the twincharged VW motor.

I'm interpreting their technical description as having the supercharger blowing its compressed air into the turbo, however the turbo also has an air intake which opens once it is spooled up - somewhere after 2400 RPM. in this way, the supercharger can be declutched and the turbo provides all the boost for the midrange and top end. Looks like the supercharger is only being used at low rpm - exactly where turbos are weak due to lack of exhaust flow.

I was amazed to see they're getting 2.5 bar (36) psi of boost into this motor with this combo at only 1500 RPM, and I'm wondering if that's absolute or gauge? Surely it must be absolute?

It's interesting and encouraging that an OEM is trying this - it certainly gives the concept credibility. Wonder if they'd use the same arrangement if they put it on a Vee motor?

Has anyone in the UK or Europe driven or seen one of these? Apparently they've been out for a year or so?

told you it (VW) wasn't compound.

and yes I've seen it and it works like you described,
I think indeed the boost is absolute, but woudn't be suprised it was 2.5 over atmo at all, since they pull enourmous torque at low revs from this 1.4L baby's.

the system is put up to get lower emissions and not to make power, not that it can't make power, but it mainly desinged for emissions.

and yes they probably use the same on the V engine's because VW uses the VR6 cylinder head bank angle arrangement for about every V or W engine they have.

they do think the other way round as we do, but that makes for an easier solution.

grtz Thomas
 
Speaking of Jag XK's on the way to work this afternoon I had one of the brand new style versions come tanking it past me....this was an XK*R* and not an XK8 and by god did it sound nice!

It belted past with a V8 sound but I swear it was barking and snarling at the same time, angry engine.
 


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