Making the car faster with out hp gains?

[Jake Breyck]

that vert, i was just having a little fun. i worked at an importing shop in japan, and i was cutting it to make a clip to ship back to the usa. but first i might as well make a vert and take a few pics. it was never a "project" just 10mins of fun before chopping the floor and rendering it no longer a car. knotice the supra front clip right in front of it. and the other cars and junk around the shop.

 

[XR8tt]

Shorter diff ratio helps with accelleration...

 

[jibbby]

Jibbby, Convert it to 5speed..... you'll loose weight (probably around 25lbs or so) and gain more usuable power at the wheels....You have to pay to play and speed cost money, how fast do you really want to go??????

Yeah, I know a manual tranny would aid alot in performance in more ways then one... I'm in traffic here in LA and I am to lazy to shift thru the gears 24/7... Besides, a V160 or R134 swap on an SC400 would be very costly and require alot of work... More then I would like to take on and more then the car is worth by far.... Good points though Cjsupra90 on the manual swaps.... Drivetrain power loss and weight will be reduced with a manual transmission for sure over an automatic tranny..

Xr88t - Yep, when customizing a convertible you get alot of body flex, and you will compromise the structual integrity of the car in some ways for sure...

Example - I had bought a costum converterible 91 Vette years ago... It was a pro job, no leaks, the canvas top fit perfectly and the Vette had an X frame installed under the car too for additional support...However, when I road up a driveway at an angle the Vette creaked and moaned and flexed like crazy... Just didn't feel as firm as a hardtop... I then proceeded to beat on it for a year and sold it... At time of sale that Vette was a rattle box... However, It did handle very well though... Decent pickup aswell for it's time.....

 

[spf_lexus]

jibby

hey was that the rare quad cam vett??? i don't know the exact year that had this unique non-pushrod but always thought it was early 1990's. Lotus teamed up with chevy for the only 4-cam 300+ hp vette. i could be wrong but it might have been the old ZR-1 that had it, anyone? It didn't take off to well tho, Chevy can't deal w/ multiple parts in their engines and as a result the engine proved too costy and weighed more than its pushrod counterpart. Interesting tho that at that time the standard vette engines put out 250hp.

 

[jibbby]

SPF - No it wasn't the rare quad cam (ZR-1), just a standard LT1 Vette just made convertible... Completely stock, as I never touched it and or modified it... Was always trying to re-sell it and it took just about a year to do so.. Nobody wanted it because it was a custom deal convert. and it had a few too many rattles and squeeks.. Next sportscar of mine which I enjoyed even more was the 93 Nissan 300zx twin turbo... That didn't last long for me either, turbo's started loosing boost and it was way too expensive to maintain.. When running that 300zx car had some spunk when spooled.... Little faster then the Vette but not off the line though...

The 90's ZR-1's were very fast for it's time... Decently fast even today probably... ...

 

[cjsupra90]

Yeah, I know a manual tranny would aid alot in performance in more ways then one... I'm in traffic here in LA and I am to lazy to shift thru the gears 24/7... Besides, a V160 or R134 swap on an SC400 would be very costly and require alot of work... More then I would like to take on and more then the car is worth by far.... Good points though Cjsupra90 on the manual swaps.... Drivetrain power loss and weight will be reduced with a manual transmission for sure over an automatic tranny..

Forget the V160 and R154, go W58. Just about a bolt-in ordeal being that the SC300 cam with one already.... Much more cost effective....

Just get a W58 from an SC300 or a MKIV N/A supra, the SC300 Manual trans cross member and driveshaft, one of Phil bradshaw's adapters, SC300 clutch mastercylinder and manual peddle assembly, a Howe Racing hydraulic release bearing assembly, some stainless steel braded lines and a day's worth of work and you have a manual... Oh, almost forgot the clutch and flywheel.... Pretty much a bolt-in ordeal and should be able to be done for under a grand if you do the work yourself and shop around for deals on the clutch, trans, driveshaft and crossmember......

 

[jibbby]

CJsupra - I am some what familiar with the W58 and they are not as stout as the R154, and not even close to the V160... I think they are rated around 400whp and that's it if I am not mistaken.. The R154 can handle 500whp or maybe even a little more...The V160 is four digit +...

What's the point on having a manual if you cannot boost away and make big power?... If I were to go manual and spend the time and money to do so I would have to have hunt down a used V160 and go for that... With that you would have no power road blocks in the future.. Shifts would be like butter and a six speed to boot.... However, those trannies are bank, and I am sure it is not an easy swap like the W58's... However, the Supra's do share the same subframe as the SC300 and SC400's...

CJsupra - You seem to know alot about the manuals...Mind if I pick your brain some? What do you know about the maximum power you can push thru the W58's (SC300 manuals)? Maybe I am wrong in my assessments... Can you squeeze 500whp thru that?

Also when swapping in the W58 into an SC400 isn't the brake booster in the way and need to be repositioned? What about cutting holes in the floor board for the clutch assembly? How about the mounting? Does it really just bolt right up like you say? I've read about the R154 swaps performed and discribed on threads and it usually takes months and tons of custom work to finalise the deal for most and a ton of extra suprise money too..... Are you sure it takes a day for you to do this W58 swap and won't break the bank?

It maybe easier to just swap in a 1uz-fe motor into used SC300 instead no? Swap in a Sc400 truck lid then you got the same thing... A manual SC400... Drop in the 1uz.., wire up the ECU, custom fit motor mounts if needed, exhaust swaps and there you have it... Same subframes, probably the same bolt patters for everything as well..... To me that would be the easier and more doable swap, no?

I've never seen or heard of that being done, I wonder why not?

 

[Jake Breyck]

the W58 being a weak transmission is totally an Internet misconception.

people with no experience putting w58s and R154s through there paces take a very small amount of information and go crazy with it.

first the W58 came in non turbo supras vs the R154 coming in turbo supras, it is a little smaller as well, so people assume that the W85 is weaker, witch the are correct to a point but as things go on the Internet a little weaker turns into a lot weaker, and it gets rehashed and rehashed to the point where a lot of people assume a W58 can not handle a powerful motor.

In real life I made 450hp on my old 7m supra with a w58, and was a regular at drag racing events and take my word for it, i was very competitive off the line. and i never damaged a W58, i went though a few motors but never a single transmission.

I have come across quite a few people who have put that transmission though its paces similar to how i have and had a similar experience, i do believe a w58 is a much more forgiving transmission for a not so good driver over a R154, the w58 easyer to shift so a lot less likely to misshift as often.

On top of all of this, even if you break one its not the end of the world there usually only around $50 to get a new one, that's cheaper then a new clutch. so whats the big deal even if you changed them out with every clutch you could do this for 10 years before you ever got near the price of a R154 let alone a V160

even if an item isn't traditionally not a wear item, is it that big of a deal to treat it as such if its much cheaper then wear items anyhow?


jibby, this is very much the reason why i get on to you for posting information that is very incorrect as if it was factual. 3sfe vs 3sge thread, and ITB having filters and turbos thread for example. these types of posts get picked up and rehashed and you get end up with common misconceptions like W58s are weak, supras are too heavy to drift, AE86's can beat any car in a race. etc.

 

[jibbby]

Jake, good info. I give you that much but your competely missing the point..

Still the W58 aren't 500whp stout, so what good are they for an SC400 swap then?.. We are talking about the Soarer and SC4's right? Heck, I can lay down 400whp now with the stock auto and a tranny cooler... Waste of time for a W58 swap into an SC400 in my opinion as you just won't gain big benefits.... It may be even cheaper to send in the Auto tranny to boostlogic and have it built up too... Maybe you can make the SC400 a little faster with the W58 swap, maybe? Again, power road blocks in the SC400 drivetrain which I don't like and am trying to avoid, as well as many others.... I'm about to sell this car for that reason alone..

Stay on topic Jake and relate to the situation or I may have to get on you... Back at you buddy...

 

[Jake Breyck]

so what sorces do you have that say it cant handle 500hp?

 

[lowboost]

so what sorces do you have that say it cant handle 500hp?

supraforums.com

go to the NA section and ask the NAT owners, there are a LOT of people who've gone NAT and shattered transmissions with only 400whp.

 

[Jake Breyck]

I am a supra NAT owner and like i just said 2 posts back, mine out lasted 3 motors. also ive seen R154s and V160 with barly over stock motors break too.
a bad driver can break any transmission.

i dont see how a few that did break can be proof that its a weak transmission. We're not talking about T50s here.

 

[jibbby]

ive seen V160 with barly over stock motors break too.

Jake, I really have to question that comment of yours..WOW!!!!



With over six years of modifying my SC400 and on the forums this is what I have found and read to date... I'm very confident this information is correct based on my continued findings.. Hey, but if someone knows other wise please let me know...

Stock SC400/Soarer Automatic transmission (A34OE)- Has been known to handle 400whp with an additional tranny cooler...However, I personally have wasted two trannies with just over 300whp and ton of torque... One popped and gave up the ghost in 2nd gear, and the other built up tranny overheated on me a few years ago with no additional cooler (my bad)... Timely shifts too are suspect with big power and torque as well... My on going delema...

Boostlogic.com - Lexus auto tranny's can be made to handle 700hp from what I have heard but don't quote me on that..... I would "venture to guess" with that much power you will either need a shift kit or triptronic control to manage timely shifts...

R154 - As noted on the CLub lexus forum in many threads the tranny power claims have been reported to be right around 500whp.. That is pushing the envelope from what I have read with the R154's....

V160 - Limitless pretty much...4 digit horsepower... I have seen many handling 1000hp+...

W58 - The weakest of the bunch...Based on what Jake said maybe 400-450whp which I would really like to see... I have heard 400whp is really pushing it on those weak arse W58's...

You can also look into the Th400's and other Ford and Chevy auto trannys swaps but then you are in over your head with custom mods and fits...

So in the end if you own a Soarer/SC400 this is what you are looking at for swap and built options.. Also keep in mind the stock SC400/Soarer driveshafts and spindles have their breaking points too...

 

[Jake Breyck]

lets get one thing straight. its not as cut and dry as you seem to think..

these parts dont fail at a very spicific point. for instance. yes i agree a V160 can handle 1000ish hp.. but a car that makes 1000 hp how often and long does it really make this kind of power all the time? most of these people who have this kind of power dont use that often or really ever. they build the car, dyno it to a 4 digit number a few times maybe 3 or 4 to tune it and then hit up a few dyno meets, other then that the car is magorly tuned down for every day street use. and eve if not tuned down, how often do you think the owner needs to make full power. these people who have these really nice supras do take care of them for the most part or pay the price of not takeing care of it.

race cars on the other hand are a diffrent story transmissions, diffs, drive shafts, axels, hubs, all are considered wear items. I work on the side for a few endurance race teams, for a single car, we will carry 3 or 4 replacment transmissions, a few diffs, and verious other magor items that are not normally considered wear items on a street car. oh ya and thes race cars barly make 200hp ;-)

Im willing to bet you could get 1000hp though a W58 as well, but the question is for how long.. im very cofadant it can hold quite a few dyno pulls as this sorta load doent do a lot of damage to transmission, sence there is no shifting invoved.

this isnt something anyone here is gunna go setup just to test out, but you must realize its not simple cut and dry the W58 isnt gunna say OMG 452hp oh crap i must fallapart right at this exact hp.

with this in mind how many W58s can you break and replace before you ever match the price of a single R154 or V160?

dont make the lonely little W58 out to be some kinda weak ass bastered child of the toyota/asin line up becouse its far from being so.

 

[cjsupra90]

First and formost, FORGET HORSEPOWER NUMBERS, Torque is what make and breaks everything. Horsepower is nothing more then a mathmatical calculation and thats it. The only reason why we have that notion of horsepower is because of John Watts and his want to be able to rate how much work a horse a horse could do in a certian amount of time.

I'll say it again, Torque is what breaks things.... This is also why transmission manufactures rate a transmission on torque holding capacity not hp. This is because two engines could have the same peek torque, but two totally different HP ratings.....

You want to talk HP, well ****, I have run 700hp (704 to be exact) through a W58, but this was @ 10,200RPM's on a turbocharged 13b rotary engine and thus there was only 362lbs/tq (torque) and the peek torque was only 376lbs/tq @ 8000RPM's.... So again, if you want to talk HP holding then I have blown your 400hp quote out of the water by 300hp...... End of story......

Now lets take the sopposedly brute strength V160 and bolt it behind a Caterpiller C9 engine that only produces 350hp and bring that engine up to 1500RPM and drop the clutch and I will bet my life on it that you will destroy that trans in a matter of seconds!!!!!! All because that engine produces about 1200lbs/tq at 1500RPM's

So again, forget HP numbers and look at TQ numbers, this is whats important and also why (again) trans manufactures give torque numbers for tansmission's not HP....

Oh a different note, I am also a former NA/T supra owner and I had produced 472hp on my supra with a W58 and that trans is still in the car to this day....

Final note, torque and more so shock load are what kill transmissions, not HP.... If you have good shifting habbits and dont run a solid hub clutch disk, any trans will handle a lot of power. This is why you dont really here to much of transmissions blowing up during dyno runs, but 9 time out of 10, while racing someone....

 

[cjsupra90]

Im not saying that the W58 is extremely stong or anything, but they are stronger then what most think for one and yes stock 2jz-gte's have broke v160's. Put a tilton tripple disc on a stock 2jz-gte, throw on a set of drag slicks and heat them up, bring the engine to about 5500 RPM and drop the clutch and chance are you will garnade the tranny...... I've seen it happen with my own eyes and more then once. Remember, that brute strength V160 is only rated at 361lbs/tq from getrag (the manufacture) IIRC.

 

[Jake Breyck]

the V160 i had to replace for somene was running a stock clutch and street tires, he just beat the **** out of it and it didnt like that too well.

so two people in this thread makeing at or over 450hp on a w58 and the trans lives today, sorry i dont rember what the tq was on my 450hp motor, and i really cant garentee that trans lives today sence i sold that car years ago, but it was in good shape when i sold it.

no one is selling you (jibby) that you have to run a w58, just that you shouldnt call that tranmission weak by any means.

it shouldnt be too long untill im testing out a w58 being spun by a m112-1uz combo, we'll see how well it holds up to that.

 

[JBrady]

Excellent descriptions by CJ and Jake.

Another way to visualize this is fishing... how large of a fish can you catch on 10lb test line? You can break it with a 5 pounder or catch a 20 pounder if you are smooth and avoid IMPACT loading the line.

Same with transmissions. Take the old Ford Mustang GTs and their T5 transmission. TONS of stock trannies were broken by "enthusiastic" drivers while I personally watched a stock one live behind a turbocharged 5.0 running 10.80s at 120mph pulling the front tires off the ground running M&H street slicks. This car was driven by builder owner Richard McClure from Cartech in Dallas (1990) to Houston Raceway park (275 miles) raced, posted above numbers, and driven back to Dallas. Those trannies were rated 310lb/tq.

Now, Richard is a very good driver and even though he launched hard he still did so as smoothly as possible while still getting those results.

This is also like a built engine with forged pistons vs stock cast pistons. You can make surprising power on cast pistons as long as you do NOT detonate, overheat or over-rev the engine. Avoiding shock and impact will maximize your results.

Lesson: strong is good but learn to maximize what you have. MOST cars will go much quicker than their drivers are capable of driving them. The famous Jackie Stewart preached SMOOTH is FAST.

 

[jibbby]

CJ - Yep, it's the torque that snaps the trannies and not the HP numbers... As I said above I snapped an A34OE with only 300whp and probably slightly over 400 FT. pounds of torque... My stock SC400 drivetrain did not appreciate the 400 plus torque to say the least combined with the LSD and fat rear grippy tires... Increased traction can put addition strain on all moving parts too, including the transmission.....Well heat is really is the number one killer of most trannies if you want to get down to it........ Transmission speaking....

I just rated all those trannies above as breaking at certain HP points because that is how they were reported several times on the forums... People don't report failed transmissions with torque numbers unfortunately, it's always HP's..... Those are average and commonly reported breaking points that is all....

Jake, maybe the W58 is not a weak arse tranny like I said but it is rated below all the others...

I think age and condition of all used transmissions also can play a key roll on how stout it is...

Alot of factors to consider when trying to rate a used transmission....

 

[cjsupra90]

I just rated all those trannies above as breaking at certain HP points because that is how they were reported several times on the forums... People don't report failed transmissions with torque numbers unfortunately, it's always HP's..... Those are average and commonly reported breaking points that is all....

and thus the reason for not making an argument base on the facts at hand because they are invalid facts. I wish that HP was erased form the automotive world all together......
when it comes to how much something will handle with in drivetrain components, disregard any info that is based on HP cause As I have showed, its not a valid means of how much something could handle. If everyone whats to argue about how much the W58 can handle in HP, then I have contradicted all of them cause again I have pushed 700hp through one with no problems.......

Johns example of the mustang with the T5 is the perfect example of how its all in how you drive it. Most tranny's that break are due to the driver not the tranny and I have said this countless times in threads on here and other forums alike.....