its also rediculously huge. 8L+, and it weighs well over 500 lbs, even though its aluminum.
V12 from uzfe
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The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
its also rediculously huge. 8L+, and it weighs well over 500 lbs, even though its aluminum.
Anaema, I haven't forgotten about you, but when I looked at the stack of boxes from my industrial engine days, I just didn't have the motivation to go through them all searching for the reference on secondary shaking.
I did, however, find a website with a wealth of torsional vibration information which explains some of it pretty well in layman's terms. Torsional studies are the stuff that mechanical engineers with lots of letters behind their names really get off on, but this site brings it down to a level that anyone can understand. By all means, read the whole page, but be sure to have a look at the bottom where odd firing 90 degree V12's are presented: http://www.epi-eng.com/ET-PistonExcit.htm
Although the author doesn't state this, it would appear that the even firing 90 degree V8 is smoother from a torsional perspective than the odd-firing 90 degree V12.
They are big, that's for sure (10 liter) with a base horsepower of 720 and capable of 2,000+, this is no wimpy engine. And at 500 pounds, it is very light for the output.
The biggest snag I see with this engine is the price at about $65,000 per. If I was building an airplane (a scale P-38 comes to mind) and cost was secondary, this would be my choice for sure.
JMHO
Dan
Agreed. I've been corresponding with a fellow who owned an early BMW V12 motor with the 2 valve heads and SOHC's, and "all" he wanted to do was adapt the DOHC 4 valve heads from the M50 motor to it. Seems simple enough, right?
More than three years later he was finally done, but by then he owned a very unique $60,000 DOHC 5.0 litre V12 motor that probably only made 400 BHP. :shock:
And then to add insult to injury BMW brought out their 6.0 litre DOHC V12, which makes 438 BHP from the factory!
I think I have seen that chap you are talking about around on forums, I thought there was lots of discussion on it, making custom heads etc but no one ever managed to get round to it.
Still even if he 'only' got 400bhp surely the heads flow a damn sight better than the standard M70/71 heads so the potential has opened up? Can you buy the adapted heads from him?
Is the 6litre one a new engine?
Cheers dude.
i doubt that. the Jag V12 can be pushed to beyond 8L, and it can make more than 900 HP in NA trim.
Jaguar themselves have proved that their old V12 is the stuff. they managed 700 or more HP out of it when they raced in the Group C days.
not to mention the 1GZ is just so rare that its almost not even worth looking at. there never were many Centuries out there, and even less trashed ones.
yes, i have one bookmarked. they also have alot of info about how crappy Roots blowers are and how godlike Screw types are. and some stuff about the history and reasons the Jag V12 evolved into its best form: the HE head. also info on the recent V8 and its technical bits.
its also rediculously huge. 8L+, and it weighs well over 500 lbs, even though its aluminum.
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Anaema, I haven't forgotten about you, but when I looked at the stack of boxes from my industrial engine days, I just didn't have the motivation to go through them all searching for the reference on secondary shaking.
I did, however, find a website with a wealth of torsional vibration information which explains some of it pretty well in layman's terms. Torsional studies are the stuff that mechanical engineers with lots of letters behind their names really get off on, but this site brings it down to a level that anyone can understand. By all means, read the whole page, but be sure to have a look at the bottom where odd firing 90 degree V12's are presented: http://www.epi-eng.com/ET-PistonExcit.htm
Although the author doesn't state this, it would appear that the even firing 90 degree V8 is smoother from a torsional perspective than the odd-firing 90 degree V12.
Bergmen
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They are big, that's for sure (10 liter) with a base horsepower of 720 and capable of 2,000+, this is no wimpy engine. And at 500 pounds, it is very light for the output.
The biggest snag I see with this engine is the price at about $65,000 per. If I was building an airplane (a scale P-38 comes to mind) and cost was secondary, this would be my choice for sure.
JMHO
Dan
redrocco
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Why not just make a custom alum. block for a pair of 2jz heads and a custom crank. A custom block is not that hard if you keep it simple. Use a dry sump setup and external electric water pump. Use 2 2jz-fe heads with one of the distributors removed and the other driveing both heads. Set it up to use the supra 6 speed. I think the whole thing could be built for under $10,000.
I seriously doubt that that would be doable under 10.000 remember that the bike engined crew pull this sort of job off quite cheap because they use the cylinderblocks of the original engines aswell.
making a crankcase to take a set off milled down 2jz cylinderbanks and a crank to suit will cost you probably more than that, let alone the costs it would take to run such a beast (exhaust ecu etc etc) everything count's double in that area because... well errhm it is!
why bother with distributed ignition on a custom V12 engine?
for that money I would seriously consider having a flatplane crank made up for our v8.
or invest that 10.000 in a merc v12 or buy a ferrari engine for a little more
grtz Thomas
making a crankcase to take a set off milled down 2jz cylinderbanks and a crank to suit will cost you probably more than that, let alone the costs it would take to run such a beast (exhaust ecu etc etc) everything count's double in that area because... well errhm it is!
why bother with distributed ignition on a custom V12 engine?
for that money I would seriously consider having a flatplane crank made up for our v8.
or invest that 10.000 in a merc v12 or buy a ferrari engine for a little more
grtz Thomas
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Agreed. I've been corresponding with a fellow who owned an early BMW V12 motor with the 2 valve heads and SOHC's, and "all" he wanted to do was adapt the DOHC 4 valve heads from the M50 motor to it. Seems simple enough, right?
More than three years later he was finally done, but by then he owned a very unique $60,000 DOHC 5.0 litre V12 motor that probably only made 400 BHP. :shock:
And then to add insult to injury BMW brought out their 6.0 litre DOHC V12, which makes 438 BHP from the factory!
LondonBenji
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I think I have seen that chap you are talking about around on forums, I thought there was lots of discussion on it, making custom heads etc but no one ever managed to get round to it.
Still even if he 'only' got 400bhp surely the heads flow a damn sight better than the standard M70/71 heads so the potential has opened up? Can you buy the adapted heads from him?
Is the 6litre one a new engine?
Cheers dude.
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Benji, I don't think this guy was "around" on the usual forums; in fact he took the project on as a contract, and his client stiffed him, so he binned the whole motor (so he says)!
The guy you're speaking of is a regular on the kitcar forum and he's about to sandcast his own DOHC heads, IIRC.
There's a third guy, the builder for my M70, who I think has already built/adapted the M50 heads to the M70, however he won't touch a conversion for less than $85K, nor will he discuss it by email with anyone.
The 6.0 litre motor with 4 valve heads is what BMW brought out around 2003 for their flagship 760 car. It's the motor that all of us who have M70's lust for, but can't touch.
Lots of mystery and intrigue with these V12 motors!
The guy you're speaking of is a regular on the kitcar forum and he's about to sandcast his own DOHC heads, IIRC.
There's a third guy, the builder for my M70, who I think has already built/adapted the M50 heads to the M70, however he won't touch a conversion for less than $85K, nor will he discuss it by email with anyone.
The 6.0 litre motor with 4 valve heads is what BMW brought out around 2003 for their flagship 760 car. It's the motor that all of us who have M70's lust for, but can't touch.
Lots of mystery and intrigue with these V12 motors!
LondonBenji
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Mainly just finding suitable bloody heads the will bolt straight on! 
The guy I saw was on the bimmerforums and goes by the name MWrench or maybe Ed I think.
Once the head problem is cracked (not literally speaking!) I think the M70 will be like gold dust, but I doubt the problem will ever be 'cracked'
The guy I saw was on the bimmerforums and goes by the name MWrench or maybe Ed I think.
Once the head problem is cracked (not literally speaking!) I think the M70 will be like gold dust, but I doubt the problem will ever be 'cracked'
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Right, that would be Ed Rae****. Another BMW engine guru - he and the builder I'm using, Henry Law***** collaborate occasionally on go-fast stuff for the M70.
First time I spoke with Ed he said "I specialise in the weird."
The M50 heads apparently bolt on to the M70 block, but that's only the tip of the iceberg, so I've heard.
Here's a couple shots of an M70 wearing M50 heads, and no, this has not been photoshopped; I personally spoke with the photographer.
To keep this thread on topic, I suggest if we want to talk more about M70 stuff, we can move over to my GT40 thread, or start a new thread about M70's.
First time I spoke with Ed he said "I specialise in the weird."
The M50 heads apparently bolt on to the M70 block, but that's only the tip of the iceberg, so I've heard.
Here's a couple shots of an M70 wearing M50 heads, and no, this has not been photoshopped; I personally spoke with the photographer.
To keep this thread on topic, I suggest if we want to talk more about M70 stuff, we can move over to my GT40 thread, or start a new thread about M70's.
Warpspeed
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Hey you guys, why even bother building your own V12 by trying to use super glue and a pair of tired old six bangers ??? Toyota have already done all the work with the 1GZ-FE. Twelve pistons, all aluminium, five litres, DOHC four valves per cylinder and it is an off the shelf Japanese production engine on some sort of Toyota luxury barge called the "Century".
http://www.answers.com/topic/toyota-gz-engine
This engine is fairly rare and expensive, even in Japan, but they do exist, and it must still be a lot cheaper than trying to do this yourself at home.
And it has DOHC heads, Jaguar and BMW only have two valve heads on their V12 engines, so it probably has more high performance potential when modified.
http://www.answers.com/topic/toyota-gz-engine
This engine is fairly rare and expensive, even in Japan, but they do exist, and it must still be a lot cheaper than trying to do this yourself at home.
And it has DOHC heads, Jaguar and BMW only have two valve heads on their V12 engines, so it probably has more high performance potential when modified.
i doubt that. the Jag V12 can be pushed to beyond 8L, and it can make more than 900 HP in NA trim.
Jaguar themselves have proved that their old V12 is the stuff. they managed 700 or more HP out of it when they raced in the Group C days.
not to mention the 1GZ is just so rare that its almost not even worth looking at. there never were many Centuries out there, and even less trashed ones.
LondonBenji
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Yeah, thats the problem with the Toyota V12 it seems, to quote a phrase "rare as rocking horse ****".
Being a little lazy here, are there any sites that have great info on the Jaguar V12?
Being a little lazy here, are there any sites that have great info on the Jaguar V12?
yes, i have one bookmarked. they also have alot of info about how crappy Roots blowers are and how godlike Screw types are. and some stuff about the history and reasons the Jag V12 evolved into its best form: the HE head. also info on the recent V8 and its technical bits.
Lads, let's get back to earth again,
@ london, there was almost NOTHING standard jaguar in the Jag groups C LMP engine anymore, every part was modified or made up from scratch. therby Jag brought 2 complete spare cars in parts, and a private airplane to go and get parts, to le-mans so they could win the race, which they did ok, but defenatly NOT with a lightly modified production block.
Toyota 1g engine, cool plan but there seem to be not many people working on those, so knowledge about these is not to widespread.
BMW v12 even when it's an M70....
Nice ok, but come on 75hp per litre NA is nothing to get me going, my 1.6 20v in the striker pumps out 104 per litre with only an good Omex 500 ECU, a decent set of cams should do a serious trick, but there's power enough to go from 0-100 in 4.6 sec so why bother, when traction is the problem (remember 498kg wet).
If anyone thinks about having a high revving cool sounding very powerfull engine in their car, it should 1st not be a 1500+kg lexus or toyota, but something very light. (but that's an opinion ok)
if spending 60K+ on an engine, you be better of building a street legal Radical SR3 and ditch a powertec v8 in that That will be fatser than anything production on the streets anywhere .period.
2nd =: 60K+ would buy a used rebuildable cosworth DF series flatplane v8 which would sound better than any production v12 even on only 8000rpm to keep it in one piece for prolonged periods of time.
my humble opinion is that it's worth nothing having the wrong engine in the wrong car. ie NA sreamer in a 1700kg luxury sedan is not the way, semi lazy turbo-SC'd in that would do the trick, whereas a 9000rpm in an superlite chassis would be far quicker than a turbo set-up on a big engine.
spend wisley and end up with a quicker car than the neighbour.
grtz Thomas
@ london, there was almost NOTHING standard jaguar in the Jag groups C LMP engine anymore, every part was modified or made up from scratch. therby Jag brought 2 complete spare cars in parts, and a private airplane to go and get parts, to le-mans so they could win the race, which they did ok, but defenatly NOT with a lightly modified production block.
Toyota 1g engine, cool plan but there seem to be not many people working on those, so knowledge about these is not to widespread.
BMW v12 even when it's an M70....
Nice ok, but come on 75hp per litre NA is nothing to get me going, my 1.6 20v in the striker pumps out 104 per litre with only an good Omex 500 ECU, a decent set of cams should do a serious trick, but there's power enough to go from 0-100 in 4.6 sec so why bother, when traction is the problem (remember 498kg wet).
If anyone thinks about having a high revving cool sounding very powerfull engine in their car, it should 1st not be a 1500+kg lexus or toyota, but something very light. (but that's an opinion ok)
if spending 60K+ on an engine, you be better of building a street legal Radical SR3 and ditch a powertec v8 in that That will be fatser than anything production on the streets anywhere .period.
2nd =: 60K+ would buy a used rebuildable cosworth DF series flatplane v8 which would sound better than any production v12 even on only 8000rpm to keep it in one piece for prolonged periods of time.
my humble opinion is that it's worth nothing having the wrong engine in the wrong car. ie NA sreamer in a 1700kg luxury sedan is not the way, semi lazy turbo-SC'd in that would do the trick, whereas a 9000rpm in an superlite chassis would be far quicker than a turbo set-up on a big engine.
spend wisley and end up with a quicker car than the neighbour.
grtz Thomas
Warpspeed
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Agree totally on spending wisely. The fastest car I have ever owned was a fairly spartan and primitive mid engined Lotus Europa with a home built turbo 13B rotary.
Low cost, and light weight combined with plenty of traction. Nothing I have driven since has been quite so much fun.
Low cost, and light weight combined with plenty of traction. Nothing I have driven since has been quite so much fun.
LondonBenji
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Superlight tubular space frame chassis? You read my mind
Anaema! Thanks for the link dude, turns out I did some research and had alreaady come across that site! But I read it in more detail this time, very fascinating.....those Jag V12's can be had for *CHEAP* and then you can go to 8, even 11 litres! Sick! But how strong are the engines..... like 1UZFE strong? Are there any good sounding videos with cars using this engine in?
How strong is the M70 for that matter?
Anaema! Thanks for the link dude, turns out I did some research and had alreaady come across that site! But I read it in more detail this time, very fascinating.....those Jag V12's can be had for *CHEAP* and then you can go to 8, even 11 litres! Sick! But how strong are the engines..... like 1UZFE strong? Are there any good sounding videos with cars using this engine in?
How strong is the M70 for that matter?
