MSD? or other?

[xirforever]

What would be a nice ignition system that can power two coils and is ment for a distributed ignition system that would aso have high adjustablity for many things.... including a windowswitch. I like all the MSD systems, but they lack one box that is ment for a distributed system that can power two coils. They have multiple coil control ignitions, but they say on their site they are designed for distributorless systems..? Am i wrong? If i am id like to go with the DIS-2 very much. any info is appreciated

 

[elhsupra]

Only dual box I have found so far is the AEM C2DI. But it does not have any decent options with it.

 

[KDog]

Do you want an inductive system or a CDI system?
Either can be used and put spark through the distributor system, you will just have different coils. Running the CDI through the dizzy is a bit of waste buyt it can still be done.

If you want a normal inductive system I don't think anything exists, or CDI for that matter. Or are you more after and ignition only ECU? Normal CDI systems rely on an external ECU to determine ignition events.

 

[xirforever]

Sorry for my ignorance, i do not know what an inductive nor CDI systems are. So im not really sure how to answer... what i want to achieve is a good ignition tuning device like david has, the MSD 6a units, however he has to run two along wtih an adaptor. On top of that if i did go that rout, id want to run a window switch for when i inject nitrous it will retard timeing, im just worried about if each 6a unit will retard ignition at the exact same time and do other things like rev limmiting at the same exact moment. Am i just being paranoid? Does this SLIGHT time even effect the motor? But see i like the MSD digital 6 plus units. I dont know id rather have a single unit so its only up to one system. If this makes sense.... but if having 2 ignition boxe's wont affect the affor mentioned, then i guess ill just have to go that route... its just a bit more money and complication in wiring...

But i dont think i want more of an ecu type ignition, id like it to also improve the spark coming from the coils. Just with adjustablility

 

[KDog]

Sorry i'm not really following the difference between tuning and adjustability?
The device David is using doesn't allow for any tuning ie adjusting the advance or retardation of ignition timing, they just fire a spark when told to by the ECU. They produce a more powerfull spark teh nwhat the stock system produces, which may be necessary to ensure a strong enough spark to ignition the fuel under the higher combustion pressure that forced induction gives you.

Do you just want something that will retard the timing when the NO2 is on then you are out of luck, only a programmable ECU will have this option.
The MSD etc fire when they are told to by the ECU, they do do any calculations on when the ignition event occurs.

CDI is Capacitive Discharge Ignition -the spark engergy is stored in a capacitor. Whe the spark event occurs the capacitor is connected to the coil the coil increases the voltage to your high tensions voltage. The cap can store a lot of energy and therefore the spark is normally very strong with a CDI system.

Inductive Ignition is where the Coil is used to store the energy. When a spark event is needed the coil is shorted to ground. The other side of the coil tries to resist this change by building up it own voltage which then fires the spark plug. On some systems you can change the Dwell time to allow the coil more time to charge up, producing a stronger spark (unless the coil is full/saturated)

These description are a very basic version and should not be taken verbatim.

Neither system is superior to the other, it just depends on your needs. For instance the field of F1 cars is split - some use CDI some use Induction. Some math will reveal why the Induction system can work.

 

[xirforever]

Do you just want something that will retard the timing when the NO2 is on then you are out of luck, only a programmable ECU will have this option.
The MSD etc fire when they are told to by the ECU, they do do any calculations on when the ignition event occurs.

Thanks for the explination between an induction system and a CDI system, i understand the concept of it now. And you are correct, davids has no adjustability, he has the base modle. If he had gotten the 6al boxes he would have been able to set a "soft touch" (as MSD calls it) rev limiter.

I found a MSD unit that can retard timng...take a look
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_18_6520.htm
This box allows me to set two rpm limits and retard timing when a wire is giving power (what a window switch will do) along with retarded starting. If i bought (or when) the MSD digital window switch i can set a given rpm window on which it will send power to a wire, this wire would be connected to the MSD ignition unit, and when the unit detects this wire is on, will on demand retard the timeing. At least that is how i understand it.

 

[KDog]

Most ignitions will have a reve limiter of some sort. Very easy to implement.

I stand corrected on the retard issue, I didn't check or think that any manufacturer had gone to the effort of adding thins feature. It is essentially a time delay which decreases with RPM. Your thinking is correct in regards to its operation.

 

[xirforever]

heres my question though, if i ran two of these units and used the dual ignition adaptor, when my window switch sends the signal to the ignition units to retard timing, will it be in exact unison as to effect the engine as if it was all in one unit? Or am i just being paranoid?

 

[KDog]

You shouldn't have a problem.
Even an old processor should be able to do the calculations way way before the ignitioin event is required. Engines are very slow beasts when compared with the speed of a microcontroller.
I would still check with MSD first though.

 

[Red Supra]

The MSD DIS2 will work for you.

 

[xirforever]

Really? how would the wiring work with a DIS (distributorless igntion system) on my car when i do have a distributor? Because obviously id much rather buy one unit than spend twice the money for two.

 

[Red Supra]

What are you trying to accomplish?

 

[xirforever]

In an oversimplified versoin: to retard timing when nitrous kicks in
For more information look above in the thread.

But how would any MSD DIS systems work on a 1uz? If its possible please explain.

 

[rarson]

You have to have a way to get a crank signal to the box. You remove the distributors and the box fires off the crank sensor position.

 

[Red Supra]

The MSD unit should accept the coil trigger from the ignitor as an input. Check out figure 8 and 9 on the PDF.
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/frm25956_for_62112_62152/frm25956.pdf
The DIS2 does timing retard up to 30 degrees. The distributor still in charge of firing the right cylinder at the right time while the MSD makes the spark stronger.

For those who do not need timing retard a Stacker 4 can be used. Seems to be similar design to the HKS DLI which works really well.
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_28_7010.htm

 

[xirforever]

Rarson, im pretty sure that would not work at all. If you remove the distributor how would the spark get to the spark plug wires?


Thanks for the post red, i see where you are coming from. Im pretty sure i understand how to do most of it, but i have 2 question.

1.) On a system with a distributor, what is the max amount redard/advance values before the distributor starts to miss or distort the spark? or is this even possible?
2.) Do you know if the msd unit will work if i only run it with the trigger wire? Like if i dont hook up a crank sensor hookup will it still work?

 

[Red Supra]

The stock distributors are not adjustable. They are there to simply distribute the spark. The ECU controls retarding / advancing of timing by timely triggering the stock coils.

You don't need a crank pos sensor, some aftermarket ignition systems use it as an option to control each cylinder timing individually.

When the ignition is stock the engery is stored inside the coil until it's triggered to fire. Coils in general charge slower than capacitors.
When the ecu tells the coil should fire, the MSD unit intercepts this trigger signal and using energy already stored in the capacitors inside the MSD DIS2 it sends that stored up enegery through the stock coil using it as an amplifier of sorts. The trigger signal interception happens in real time.

 

[xirforever]

Cool so the crank pos sensor isnt needed, thanks.

But yeah i know how the distributor works, i know they arent adjustable. I'm just saying if you make the spark pass through the distributor later than normal (retarding) would it be possible for it to be so late that it misses the pick up between the rotor and each spark wire in the distributor? Or is this not even possible because it would be so small of a difference in distance.

 

[Red Supra]

Not possible with the fixed ignition of the 1uz.

 

[sideshow]

i dont understand why all the fussing around of msd adjusters or crane this and that

these days the price of aftermarket ecus are dirt cheap

if u cant afford 1000 bucks then you should not work on cars

i get sick of people ringing me asking me questions bout stupid conversions like a 4cyl nissan engine running on a ford 6 cyl ecu

for me i would rather spend money to get a good ecu rather than spend 50 hours tryin to stuff aorund on something that will only do half the job

atleast with an aftermarket u have full control not half

in the end its a cheaper alternative and u do it once and do it right

sory if i sound harsh but theres too many people out there tryin to do things in halves and at the end of the day they waste more time and money