Wet Sleeves

[cowboy bebop]

Anymore perspective on this?

Here is the main question I would have with this... With the bore being increased to 4", how would the head be modified to accomodate this exta bore circuference? Especially the squish area?

Also, what rods could we use with the LS1 Forged pistons? Would the Eagle H-beam pistons still work well? Wouls they also work with a 3.5" stroke?

Eric

 

[turboteener]

Nobody with half a brain uses a block guard on Honda or any other wet sleeve block. They distort the cylinder walls, provide no support where the true max cylinder wall loading is and contribute to over-heating.

As far as putting a wet sleeve in these motors. Yes it is a great idea, but until the demand for performance mods for these engines becomes overwhelming, I doubt you will ever see this as a feasable option.

When you increase the bore to 100mm you really run out of cylinder head flow. Also increasing the bore size, will create problems with the valve curtain and massive shrouding of the valves by the combustion chambers. The combustion chambers will have to completely welded and remachined, you will have to move the water jackets out and that entails more welding than most of you guys can afford.

Sorry to piss all over your party but the feasibilty of what you are proposing is unreasonable, especially for the average joe. Give Toyota time and let them come out with an engine bigger the 4.7 for the Tacoma and just swap it in.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Actually no, I want to hear ALL sides of the issue befor I spend the first dollar to replace my 2jz-gte. These are valid points, and I'd rather hear the reality of it than take a walk down the primrose path.

As an option, what about the use of Ross pistons, .015 overbore, 9.5:1 CR....and Eagle H-beam 327 rods with a 3.5" 2uz-fe stroke? This would give us a 5.3L capacity, and a 1.1 rod ratio.

Eric

 

[turboteener]

That rod ratio is aweful. You want no less than 1.70 for most applications Stock is close to 1.75 which in many circles is beleived to be perfect. I probably wouldn't go more than .030 overbore on a 1UZ motor. I don't know much about the 2UZ motor. the 2JZ has more power potential under forced induction trim than trying to go way over sized on the 1UZ.

Now one thing that most guys here haven't looked at doing is RPMs. These motors would sound super bomb bad ass at 8500-9000 rpm. With the proper components 10K is not out of the question. Lets get someone to to more affordable camshafts for these engines instead of some costly block work without a reasonable benefit behind it.

 

[cowboy bebop]

The stock 2JZ-gte has a rod ratio of 1.00 and can rev out to 7K stock, with the valve springs being the weak point after that. Even now on a built 2JZ-gte, the bore is 87mm and the stroke is 86mm. I touch 9000rpm with no issues.

What I am looking into now, as mentioned in the other thread, is Darton MID sleeves, with a 96mm bore, 2uz heads, 3.25 stroke, and Pauter rods. Since the the 2uz bore is 3.70, the 2uz-fe heads may be suited for a larger 1uz-fe bore. They don't look like they'll need to have the coolant passages moved outwards. But as I said, I'm only looking into it.

Mathamatically, using the 3uz-fe measurements as a reference (1uz is the same block), we see that the:

Bore diameter is 90.90mm
the ISS is 14.58mm / 2 (for between the two cylinders) is 7.29mm
Bore + ISS/2 = 98.197mm
Darton sleeve bore= 96mm
(Bore + ISS/2) - Darton Bore sleeve= 2.196mm

Max sleeve thickness= 2.196mm

Eric

 

[Red Supra]

Darton LS1/LS6 sleeved motors have had problems sealing in coolant.

 

[turboteener]

The stock rod ratio for a 2JZ is 1.65:1. If you had a rod stroke ratio of 1:1 you would have a maximum piston speed of 8153fpm with a load of 6515 lbs at TDC. Those figures drop to 7597fpm and 5527lbs for a RS ratio of 1.65. They fall even further with a RS ratio of 2.06. You can not have rod ratios of 1:1. The rod would try to push the piston through the cylinder wall.

For all this gibberish, you have to keep in mind things like cylinder wall loading, cylinder filling, piston speed, flame speed, ring and piston wear and connecting rod loading. All of these things come into play when you start modifying an engine. More so when you start playing with engine geometry.

The trick would be to do what the LS7 and C5R engines did. Remove the cast iron liner and coat the cylinder walls with a nikasil coating. Check out Perfect Bore's website.
http://www.perfectbore.com/

 

[cowboy bebop]

You're right on the 2jz rod ratio beign 1.65. I think I was thinking of the 86mm x 86mm bore/ stroke. My fault on that.

With the 1uz, the rods being 5.744" and the stroke being 3.25", you end up with a rod ratio at 1.72. Looks like this thing may rev afterall.

I'm not sure that any of this is gibberish. At least no more gibberish that someone telling the 2JZ community 5 years ago that someday they will be running 200HP per cylinder on the street. Now all I have to do to see that is open my garage door. We throw out ideas, and see what works. These motors are a half decade behind the curve, so we need to bring them up to speed. Things like cylinder wall loading, cylinder filling, piston speed, flame speed, ring and piston wear and connecting rod loading of course must be kept in mind, but so far the bitch is just getting a solid aftermarket, or alternatives to a conventional aftermarket.

Eric

 

[turboteener]

I agree the 1UZ is way underdeveloped. There should be more support for it, but unfortunately the SC400 is the only car with the engine installed from the factory that is worth building up. The LS400 is a grandmas car. If we could get more people swapping the engine into other cars then maybe we could get some better support. Cams for a reasonable price is what we really need. When cams cost 1200-1600 USD you can't expect many folks to be interested. Four cam Ford guys don't have to deal with these crazy prices on their cams.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Very true, that's why if we can get get the ball rolling on how to build these motors to withstand 900-1200rwhp blasts, I'll be pushing for these motors to be swapped into the MKIV Supra. The reasons are many to why this would be a worthwhile venture, most of which a superior low end, and early spool of big turbos. And Supras LOVE big turbos. One step at a time though. If we can figure out a solid direction to take the motor builds, then the V160 tranny issue, then we can work on more affordable cams. I'm not sure how much more affordable since the MKIV Supra cams are at their cheapest now, around 350 a piece for two.

Eric

 

[Lextreme II]

Here are the MID spec from Darton. I think LS1 would be a great choice. However, there are others might work too. I wonder what is our 1uzfe sleeve length. If Honda is cheaper, we can use Honda sleeves too.

Cubic Inch calculation:
ENGINE CUBIC INCHES = (BORE) X (BORE) X (STROKE) X (.7854) X (NUMBER OF CYLINDERS)

If we use the LS1 (4.125") then we will get 360 cubic inch. 353 cubic inch is like 5.8 liters

If we use the LS1 (4.00") then we will get 332 cubic inch. 332 cubic inch is like 5.5 liters

 

[cowboy bebop]

Lex, OUTSTANDING information!

One question though. I've read on these forums that the stock 1uz-fe piston comprssion height is 1.336. Is that information accurate?

Thanks,

Eric

 

[Lextreme II]

Yes that is very true. However, LS1 compression height is 1.250 or 1.500 and we can regrind (off set) the stock to made with 327 rods.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Thanks Lex, I can't wait to see these projects come to fruition. : )

Eric

 

[Lextreme II]

What will you do with 5.8 liter N/A application? Wow.... Beside the 5.7, we can use 5.850" rods. The price for rods/pistons are very good too.