Supra Vs. LS400 (95) Brake Upgrade

[stevechumo]

Sattara,

You may be right under some conditions. However, in this case, the LS brakes win 100%. I recently upgraded the SC brake to the LS and it's totally different. I tried to stop really hard with this LS brake and it stops a lot....better than the SC. Of course I couldn't tell much difference if I only lightly tap on the brakes as a 80 years old man driving. Before, I used to have new SC pads, new Brembo rotors, bled the entire brake fluid, but it's not as good as the LS. On the LS, I used the same brands on everything to compare between the 2 systems, Monroe pads, Brembo rotors (I used cross drilled/slotted this time).

As regard to weight, the LS caliper is made of aluminum and I don't think it's much heavier than the SC caliper. I still have 1 LS caliper laying around and I'll try to weigh it against the SC. The LS rotors are cross drilled/slotted so they shave down some weight against the solid SC rotors. It's not the feeling because of the new brakes but it's the actual braking power. I've been around many brake systems (stock of course), driving a lot cars so my experience tells me there's a big difference for a fact. It's really worth the money. Well, it's only about $300 for a complete system. A Lexus dealer brake job includes resurfacing the old rotors, using the new pads can exceed $400 easily.

As for economic reason, I don't know why the SC400 or SC430 use this 2 pistons while the LS400 and LS430 use the 4 pistons. I believe it's just to cut down the cost when it's not really needed. The LS is a sedan car with wider dimensions that causes the greater momentum force to keep it from stopping, while the SC is in much smaller dimensions. Smaller dimension car doesn't have the momentum force as great as the bigger dimension car.

 

[Tacoma_Kyle]

Your comparing the calipers off a 95 later LS400 to the calipers off a stock 92 or whenever the SC was introduced. I know jack **** about the pre 95 LS400 calipers other than there is very little demand for them. Your comparing the wrong calipers man.

 

[stevechumo]

Your comparing the calipers off a 95 later LS400 to the calipers off a stock 92 or whenever the SC was introduced. I know jack **** about the pre 95 LS400 calipers other than there is very little demand for them. Your comparing the wrong calipers man.

All of these above posts are between stock '92-'00 SC400 and '95 LS400 and later. That's what this thread is about.

 

[Tacoma_Kyle]

Yeah I know---just in part of Sattara's argument he stated the SC400 was pretty much the Lexus flagship when it was released. Was it later on? I dont know---but it doesnt seem to have been for long.

 

[richonenz]

The LS is , was and always will be the flagship .
All of the LS 'es are built in one place and nothing else , the LS part supplier failure rate is 10 to one million parts supplied , every thing else is 50 to one million , nothing else comes close , the SC is close but still no cigar !!

 

[Tacoma_Kyle]

Larger car as well. Nothin lamer than a 50k+ car with brakes that leave to be desired lol.

 

[sattara]

OK, sure, if you say so...

The LS is , was and always will be the flagship .
All of the LS 'es are built in one place and nothing else , the LS part supplier failure rate is 10 to one million parts supplied , every thing else is 50 to one million , nothing else comes close , the SC is close but still no cigar !!

I see your point. In 1992, when the SC was introduced, the LS400 MSRP was (according to CarsDirect) $44,300. The SC400 MSRP was $56,305.
I'm certain that on some planet it makes sense to call the (dramatically) less expensive car the flagship, and that Toyota would, for some reason, spec lower quality components and have lower construction standards for their most expensive car. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[cribbj]

Sattara, with due respect, where do you get YOUR logic?

Have a Google of "Lexus Flagship" and see how many hits you get for the SC vs the LS. Shoot, even Wiki refers to the LS as the Lexus flagship.

For that matter, if you do a search on "Flagship" on the Lexus.com corporate website all you get are hits about the LS.

I don't own either one, so no horse in this race, but I think you're way offbase with your logic

Does that mean the Hummer is the flagship of the GM line?

 

[sattara]

but don't get the wrong idea...

I'm not saying the LS brake switch isn't good, from a purely braking perspective. I haven't tried it. I'm just saying that the reason Toyota decided on the SC setup rather than the LS setup probably wasn't to save money, since the SC cost A LOT more than the LS when it was introduced. And it probably wasn't because the engineers were idiots, either. Is the later generation LS setup better than the earlier generation SC? I don't know. But if it's true that the SC disks are less than half the weight of the LS, that's not insignificant. The LS and SC have different missions and different weights, and cars have a variety of things they do, other than just go and stop. When we modify our vehicles we sometimes have different priorities than the engineers who designed them. That's what makes it interesting. Sometimes we like the results of our changes, sometimes we don't.

 

[jibbby]

I thought the flag ship was in the NAVY.... Tells you how much I know about flag ships...

 

[cribbj]

Just a screenshot from the Lexus website. Note the text highlighted in blue.

Personally, I've always regarded the SC as a niche market car; I wouldn't dream of referring to it as the flagship of the Lexus lineup.

 

[sattara]

OK, you win

You are probably correct about my application of the term "flagship"... although I think a couple of strong arguments can be made for my usage, it's, at best, a useless semantic quibble. Congratulations.

Arguing over use of the term "flagship" is missing the point... completely.

The argument isn't about whether, taken completely out of context, the most expensive car in the line is the flagship, (even though that's the term I used - mea culpa) The point is that the SC was unequivocally the highest profile, most expensive Lexus when they started selling them, and assuming that Lexus screwed up and designed the SC brakes the way they did to pinch pennies isn't sensible. Ditto the idea that the LS, as a less expensive car, would have higher build quality than the SC.

 

[Lextreme II]

Regardless how much was spent on the SC, the LS is the flagship. The LS always get the latest and the best. For an example, LS400 was introduced in 1989 and SC did not introduce until 1991. 2007 LS460 was introduced where is SC460? Even during the mid 90s, the 1995 got an improved engine but SC didn't see this until 1996.

LS is definately the flagship for Lexus.

 

[cribbj]

You are probably correct about my application of the term "flagship"... although I think a couple of strong arguments can be made for my usage, it's, at best, a useless semantic quibble. Congratulations.

Arguing over use of the term "flagship" is missing the point... completely.

The argument isn't about whether, taken completely out of context, the most expensive car in the line is the flagship, (even though that's the term I used - mea culpa) The point is that the SC was unequivocally the highest profile, most expensive Lexus when they started selling them, and assuming that Lexus screwed up and designed the SC brakes the way they did to pinch pennies isn't sensible. Ditto the idea that the LS, as a less expensive car, would have higher build quality than the SC.

It's not about winning, my friend. It's about pointing out that your logic was flawed on this point and others, and getting you to see it.

David is absolutely right - time and time again it's been proven that the LS always gets the latest, greatest, and best that Lexus has to offer.

I think a relevant question to ask is why didn't the SC get the same brakes as the Supra, its sister car, built on the same platform? If no expense was being spared to make a world class coupe like the SC, why did Lexus settle for a lesser brake system than the Supra had? I think I know the answer, but you SC owners won't want to hear it.....

 

[stevechumo]

....I think a relevant question to ask is why didn't the SC get the same brakes as the Supra, its sister car, built on the same platform? If no expense was being spared to make a world class coupe like the SC, why did Lexus settle for a lesser brake system than the Supra had? I think I know the answer, but you SC owners won't want to hear it.....

John...you can't hide it forever...Come on...It's time for a secret to be revealed. :bad:

 

[Tacoma_Kyle]

Dude Sattara you are saying the SC was the flgship in like 92. You are comparing the LS to SC WHEN the SC wasapparently the flagship---in 92 (or whatever year). Only your logic in the braking is extremely flawed because YOUR COMPARING PARTS THAT ARE 4 YEARS NEWER.

Compare the SC400 in 95 or 96 with the LS400. The SC still the flava-flave model?

Compare calipers from the same year or LS when the SC was introduced as well.

SC's are considerably lighter as well---not like that doesnt effect the braking needs. The car wasnt built to be a damn rocket---a classy mild sports car.

 

[cribbj]

OK Steve, here's my take on it, but first let me get my Nomex underwear on, 'cause you SC owners are probably going to want to burn my butt for this.....

I believe Lexus created the SC as a luxury sport coupe, but with much more emphasis on luxury than sport. I think this was done to fill a niche market for those people who wanted something sportier than the LS, but not as hardcore as the Supra.

For these reasons, Lexus didn't see the need to give either model (300 or 400) the better brakes that both the flagship LS or the hardcore Supra had, nor did the SC400 model get an option for a manual transmission. Nor did the 300 model get the 2JZ-GTE with 6spd of the Supra, which would have been a no brainer to do, and would have given that SC some real balls.

So that's my opinion of why the SC didn't get the latest, greatest and best that Lexus had to offer (like the LS flagship), nor the best hardcore technology that was being given to the Supra, like the twinturbo motor, with fully sequential, crank triggered ignition, fully sequential fuel injection, huge brakes with 4 pot calipers up front, etc.

All these hardcore "spec's" were OTT, and weren't needed to sell these cars to the typical, well heeled potential buyers who just wanted a little sport coupe to drive to the golf or tennis club on the weekends.......

 

[Lextreme II]

John,

You are absolutely correct. SC got the left overs, suplus parts and made for the typical wanna sport owners. For example, the SC uses LS400 engine and it also used Supra NA engine. Those two engines wasnt made for the SC. Thirdly, even the frame was from the Supra.

 

[stevechumo]

John, you made me cry but standing correctly for your comparison. :approve: And like David said, the SC takes the surplus parts from the LS and the Supra. It's designed for those mild minds who wants the somewhat luxury, sporty shape and feel of the sporty car. Its interior is inferior to the LS. Its suspension and handling are also inferior to the Supra, especially the Supra TT. However, it costs a little more than the Supra TT new. It seems to be a blend-in between the above 2 cars. But...please don't think I don't like it. I'm driving one, trying to make the best out of it, and loving it all the way up. I can defend it in anyway that I can think of this bullet shape car.

 

[cribbj]

Steve, no intent to dis' the SC at all, but only to point out that it really didn't get the best or latest parts that Toyota already had in their parts bins. And this was probably done for marketing reasons because this car just didn't need those parts in order to sell.

After reading David's chicken & egg thread, and doing some more searching, it also appears that Toyota could have, but purposely didn't give the SC300 the 2JZ-GTE (it was already in the high end Aristo since '91) Perhaps with the GTE motor, the '300 would have been perceived to be in competition with its big brother, the '400. But wouldn't it have been sweet to have had a factory "limited edition" SC300 equipped with the GTE motor and 6 speed, and spec'd out similarly to the Supra, but with all the creature comforts of the SC? That would have given the BMW "M" cars a run for their money.

Anyway, I think we've sidetracked this thread enough; apologies to you guys who really just wanted to discuss the Supra vs LS brake upgrade.