Procharger Supercharger

[spf_lexus]

Nice pics Lex. I managed to get her home w/ a few stalls but nothing too bad. ... figures the day when i have to "gimp" her home the on ramp was blocked and an hour of stop/go traffic. I pretty much drove a stick home... keeping both feet planted on both pedals to keep her from stalling out lol. The idle was horrible on 1st start but after an hour or so it softened out enough where you could idle w/o stalling but it would stall if you stopped very abruptly. I am taking her over to a local shope for a tune/dyno pull. Only problem I have is my BOV spring... cant get it to open at idle, thr TIAL isnt adjustable so i need custom springs. On a turbo doesnt it have to open at idle?? and to do this you match the spring to the wastegate right? Well, I dont have a wastgate but my pulley acts the same way... regulating boost so wouldnt both application use a BOV and closely matched spring? I figure either a bigger pulley or a softer spring.

As of now its getting an 8lb pulley and a 8lb spring. Im wondering the problems of keeping a 6psi pulley and a 6psi BOV spring. Opening prematurely? possibly not letting boost build? IDK this is my 1st time doing this! the spring closed at idle seems to be my problem (aside from no tune) is this why my idle fluctuates?

 

[spf_lexus]

sorry I mistyped...



As of now its getting an 8lb pulley and a 8lb spring. (supposed to be 6psi pulley 8lb spring)

 

[Lextreme II]

Shawn,

Please read the reasoning for BYPASS VALVE and BOV http://lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9942&highlight=bypass+valve+rob

 

[spf_lexus]

Just did David and still have no straight answer lol. I figured that JustinGT8 is right with his argument as well as what steve chumo said. They both are correct in that turbo is very similar to centrifugal... both have their own means of restricting boost and thats pully and wastegate. both need a way to relieve pressure at idle but do you see any turbo guys using "traditional" bypass valves? im sure here and there (especially stock boosted) but for the most part they use BOV and for the sake of argument wouldnt 2 identical setups use identical relief valves? Its a little harder than bypass i will admit but its still very do-able IMO. I figure the reason why mine isnt opening is that my BOV is too stiff for my SC to push open. i have a 5/6 psi pulley and an 8psi spring... Now that leaves 2lb of spring thats not being pushed open. I have to rev to 2000 to get it to open Why cant I just get a 6psi spring? At idle the spring will open due to the throttle closed + vacuum pulling from the other side of the piston but 2 lb difference isnt going to open at idle right now. When I floor it at a green light my vacuum will disappear and then its strictly pulley opening the spring... soon as I stop at a red light the 6psi + fresh vacuum should guarantee an opening. I wish this BOV was adjustable so i could just "soften" the pressure but it looks like another trip to the shop!

 

[stevechumo]

Nice...I like that whining sound. :biggthumpup: I don't understand why your car stalls. Is it because of the MAF positioned too close to the BOV? You perhaps don't need any tuning because you run low to mild boost. I never had my car tuned and it runs perfectly like stock. The BOV shouldn't be open at idle. It should be closed tight and is only open when you let off the gas after revving up.

 

[JustenGT8]

Is your MAF before or after the SC? and then where is your BOV pulling air from.

Your SC is a centrifugal so totally different situation the the roots blower i was running.

BOV will still work though as long as it's in the right place...in fact for a centrifugal it's even more similar to how it should be plumbed for turbo than the roots.

If you can draw a simple pic

 

[spf_lexus]

Thanks guys for the quick responses. I have been tinkering w/ y fmu this afternoon and i think its just not getting ENOUGH fuel at idle. reason i say this is because David and i installed the Synapse unit but didnt have directions on hand so we just left the knobs alone. I have increased static fuel at idle (what psi i dont know... dont have a gauge) and instead of hiccup after hiccup so perfect a metronome would e impressed; no, now its pretty calm but w/ the occasional hiccup and more so when i lay off seddently. Huge improvements made though just thru the FMU. i feel I can get this very driveable until it gets its air/fuel professionaly calibrated.

Steve- I have my BOV about a foot away from MAF. 6'' to a 90 degree silicone and then down 6'' more. Basically its 1/2'' from the passenger side engine floor(next to bias block) and it uses same ID as boosted tundras BPV. I have a large vacuum line running to mani fitting. And before the TIAL came w/ 11lb spring that had to be revved to 4k to ooen, now im down to 2k. What would be the case if I opted for a matching rate? I mean 6psi for 6psi, match them up? WOT=no vacuum, then onlyblower to force BOV open. right?

Justin-MAF is after the SC in stock location using mandrel 3''. I have the BOV placed 12'' away and mani vacuum line is not "tee'd". i know I love the similarities w/ turbo and the ease of removal. i took mine out for an oil change and pulley adjustment and the entire bracket = charger comes out in less than 5min. Better yet i can get rid of the entire setup in a hour or 2 if smog check comes knocking.

-Thnaks for the help guys... really saved some headaches.

 

[spf_lexus]

 

[spf_lexus]

here's 3 pics of bov's... , the red replica is advertised off of the ATI website products section. On the left is the TIAL BOV that im using... notice the similarities w/ the procharger brand?? ?? anyone?? lol. The other pic was also off the site under full systems. I'm just trying to show that centrifugal systems have used the BOV and if ATI recommends them / uses them on their own systems it must be tried and true.

 

[Lextreme II]

A supercharger bypass valve and a turbo blow-off valve are two completely different valves. You must use a bypass valve with a S/C
The bypass valve is always open during high vacuum /cruise speeds or any normal driving situations. This re-circulates excess air back to the intake side of the blower,and eliminates pressure. As soon as it see no vacuum (eg,acceleration)or the onset of boost it closes and directs all air/boost in to the motor. Remember,the blower is engine driven and must have a way to get rid of excess pressure when the throttle plate is closed,or almost closed.
I have documented TRIPLE the amount of normal boost between the blower exit and the throttle plate when the throttle plate is suddenly closed (de-celeration) My bypass valve if shown on the Lextreme website or you can contact me through www.boostedtundras.com. Rob

I would follow Rob's advise to save you head aches.

 

[spf_lexus]

Yes lex but this still doesn't make sense..... triple boost pressure during closed throttle plate?? even if thats true an 8psi spring is going to open at 8psi... thats with or without vacuum so I dont understand the 3x rule. And as of now my idle is dang near stock... the rpm hiccups are gone at idle... some at mid rpm. So far my idle is 650-700 and thats w/ bov closed even w/ full vacuum at a red light. It opens IMMEDIATELY after sudden deceleration or red line gear changes... hence the WHOOOSH after I lay off my gas pedal.... BOV does a very good job at regulating psi fluctuations, i can even hold the BOV open for a second or 2 if the pedal is feathered juuuust right. I don't have an idle issue anymore and for the most part its very streetable with a very improved low end (believe it or not). I agree w/ rob... don't get me wrong but I also strongly agree that its possible to utilizing a BOV. Can anyone find fault in this decision?

 

[stevechumo]

I think you can utilize the BOV by re-venting it back before the intercooler. This will slow down the air being pushed back to the supercharger, thus it will allow the engine to have enough enough time to suck in the air at the right time. But don't take my words on this. I haven't tried this.

For the BOV location, it should be ok if you drive or boost. It might stall only when you let off the gas after revving the car at WOT and suddenly letting off the gas. I have similar distance as you do, but it hasn't stalled yet. I used to have about 10" of distance and it rarely stalled as described above. I think the reason your engine stalls even on the freeway is because of your fuel system. It may be too rich or too lean.

 

[JustenGT8]

All looks good mate, just need to tune that FMU

Adjustable BOV would make life easier though

 

[spf_lexus]

Yeah I totally agree, I love the TIAL setup but wish they could have added a measly knob on top... sheesh! And from what I can gather my problem is user and FMU, they both have to work in harmony!


Last night I played around w/ my static fuel (Idle) and figured out that yes, my car gets some boost at idle... so why not up the idle fuel press to compensate? and about 5-6 turns managed to smooth out the mix. I don't think that this setup is tuned by any means but I have made Night/day adjustments for idle alone. I'm going to give it another go today.



Steve- I was stalling on the freeway but if you go back and read it I was in "Bumper-to-Bumper" traffic for an hour that was moving 5-20mph... I needed to feather the gas/brake to keep idle at around 800-900. It was ironic though how the ecu will compensate a little on its own because it was noticeably better after an hour. But as for the WOT it doesnt stall anymore lol I was getting sick of showing it off and having to restart!! I was thinking about re-routing to pre-IC but if you look at the tial's design it cant be fitted... the chrome valves above take a look. Also do you see the procharged systems above re-routing theirs? thats a full kit from ATI and they use the tial-like valves w/ no recirculation and thats with an IC... idle is a bit mysterious for a newb like me but I was crossing my fingers on the whole static fuel idea.:thinkerg:


Right now the idle up to mid rpm (up to 3.5k) is pretty silky... if im just cruising you cant hear anything... I mean a slight whine from the gears but very lo-key, nothing like the 1st start vid that David posted (thanks Lex!). I noticed if I floor the car from a dead stop (ALL THE WAY DOWN) it pulls VERY hard from 2.5-6k and shifts flawlessly... if I'm at random throttle the car needs more fuel at certain points. I just need to adjust my onset a little more but so far so good.

 

[Lextreme II]

Make sure your system get tune asap. Remember, supercharger make boost at idle and that is why you need to relief the air during idle. You should just get a cheap ebay bypass valve and try it. I pretty sure it will take care of your idle. You are getting too much air during idle that is why it your car doesnt idle like stock. One way to test this out is to take out your BOV and turn the car on and let it idle. If it idles find, the your bov is not doing its job. Best is to run a bypass along with a wastegate. WG will open at certain given boost so it will be very safe to run smaller supercharger pulley.

 

[spf_lexus]

David, yeah the tuning starts Monday. A local shop has a dyno and wideband+comp and is next to toyota dealer (good sign i guess) anyway they say 3 pulls and full air/fuel tune. I'm carpooling in place of my usual drive from Murrieta to San marcos. lol but since this isn't going to be settled by either side let me try this out...


I was wondering... whats stopping me from going out and buying the boosted tundras BPV and running it before my BOV?? Use both valves to get best of both worlds. From what im hearing it ONLY opens at idle right? when theres full vacuum and IMMEDIATELY shuts when you start from a stop right? I mean the BTV in theory should not interfere whatsoever w/ the BOV and should effectively solve the dilemma of idle (even tho i have pretty much solved so far) but i just wanted to weigh the pros/cons before coughing up more cheese.

 

[Lextreme II]

Try the method i showed earlier. Uninstall your BOV (just a V-band away) and your idle will be perfect. Check your pm.

 

[spf_lexus]

Hey david... w/ 5 psi Im not too worried about it, I upped my idle 150rpm to 850 or so. Not much diff than stock 650 and its very smooth. I have some hiccups at mid throttle and I'm positive its from the valve not opening at mid throttle so my plan is this:


Once I get a tune I will either do 2 things:

1-Get a softer spring with my currently boost and have it open at idle or low rpm cruising so relieve my surging.

2-Get a slightly smaller pulley. I have 3.60'' and thats 5psi w/ IC. I figure upping to 7 MAYBE 8 and trying my 9psi BOV spring... w/ a little more air it shuld open pretty easily when needed.

David-Thanks for the input but im going to fight to get this current setup reliable... I just love the way a BOV centrifugal setup works... Im confident i can work the bugs out... but your right Lex, before and more modding is done I need a tune!! tomorrow is D-day for the tune so I'll keep you guys posted. And thanks everyone for the input, couldnt have done this w/o you all.


Of course another tune will be needed but a reliable finished product is what everyone wants right?

 

[RedPhoenix]

We need pics!

 

[Lextreme II]

Red,

Here it is http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91437&postcount=60