Project Thread Supercharged Supra

[JustenGT8]

Bummer about the 3S retainers John, i was hoping you were onto something there..

The VVTi retainers require machining (and i know your guy said never again) but it's just a 0.5mm dia increase to take the larger valve right?

How about you send me one of those retainers and i'll get my guy to try it and if he's cool about it he can do a full set?

 

[cribbj]

Justen, you've got PM ;-)

 

[cribbj]

For the new engine, I’m thinking of changing from Denso injectors to Siemens EV14 injectors.

The Siemens EV14’s are a more contemporary design, having been brought out in 2002 or 2003. They're part of the Deka IV family and have a composite body, stainless working bits, and Siemens rates them suitable for either gasoline or alcohol. They're used in some high performance OEM applications, as well as ULEV applications because of their superior rangeability and better atomization than older style injectors. These are a disc type injector.

There are two models commonly available, the 109958, rated at 550cc/min, and the 108191, which is rated at 650cc/min. Both are high impedance injectors like the Denso’s, but neither injector is a PnP replacement for the Denso’s. Both injectors have larger top connections, so the fuel rails must be reamed out to 14mm. (Stock rail on top, reamed rail on bottom)



They also have EV6 style (USCAR) electrical connections.



The 109958 is a shorty style injector (2.00 inches from top o-ring to bottom o-ring), and won’t work with the Richwood supercharger manifold without some remachining (lowering) of the fuel rail mounting bosses. It has a single hole orifice, which I’m told, will spray a 70 degree cone.






The 108191 is the same 2.50 inches from top o-ring to bottom o-ring as our Denso’s, so its mounting height is perfect once the fuel rail has been reamed. It has a 4 hole orifice that sprays a 30 degree cone.






The 650 cc/min 108191 is the one that will physically fit the manifold & application; it’s probably at least 30% to 40% more injector than I need, however I’m still considering using it, and hoping that the idle doesn’t suffer. Here it is mounted in the supercharger manifold, and you can see just a bit of a gap between the fuel rail bracket and the boss on the manifold.

 

[scotturnot]

Nice John! I was going to run the 550 cc RX7 injectors since they are P&P. So are you saying these will have a better spray pattern? Would the Wolfkats rails that David is selling fit these for you? I know what I checked out they were to big of hole for my injectors. I really like the 97 rails anyway, they have a nice look to them, decided to stay with them, I suppose they to could be drilled out for this type injector.

 

[stevechumo]

I think the spray pattern and the angle are very important in fuel efficiency. I'm guessing it must coordinate with the spark area in order to have the most efficient burning without wasting the fuel, and also to avoid pre-ignition around the piston's quench area.

 

[cribbj]

I think the spray pattern and the angle are very important in fuel efficiency. I'm guessing it must coordinate with the spark area in order to have the most efficient burning without wasting the fuel, and also to avoid pre-ignition around the piston's quench area.

That appears to be the main reason Siemens brought these out. That and Bosch already had their EV14 out and were taking market share from them because it was such a hot performer. Since then, Siemens have taken back the lost share, and more. Apparently they have around 30% of the market now, which is the largest piece for a single company. Then Siemens sold their injector business in December 2007 to Continental (the tire company). Kept the Siemens name, but not owned by Siemens anymore Go figure.

Nice John! I was going to run the 550 cc RX7 injectors since they are P&P. So are you saying these will have a better spray pattern? Would the Wolfkats rails that David is selling fit these for you? I know what I checked out they were to big of hole for my injectors. I really like the 97 rails anyway, they have a nice look to them, decided to stay with them, I suppose they to could be drilled out for this type injector.

These are obviously newer technology than the Denso's; better accuracy, atomisation and rangeability were the goals that Siemens (and Bosch) were aiming for with their new generation injectors. Since these are used on ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vehicles) they must have very good atomisation and repeatability.

Whether we'll see any real difference between these and the Denso's, who knows.

If I were you, and didn't want to mess about trying new stuff that's not proven, I'd just stay with the Denso's. Another thing, you'd have to hack your harness, or buy patch pigtails for these because of their EV6 connectors. Bruce Holt at Fiveomotorsports would probably build them for you, however, if you were keen to try them.

Since my engine harness has to be built from scratch anyway, it's no biggie either way for me. And as you know, I like messing about and trying new things

 

[JustenGT8]

So what's the damage to the hip pocket John.

With my intended move to E85 i need more injector and have been looking at some Evo (still denso) 650cc/min which i can get with plugs for under $400US delivered. I suspect these will be doublish in price?

 

[cribbj]

I've found them for less than $400 USD (but not delivered to Oz) here: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/144_146/products_id/608 with the EV6 connector, or here: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/448 with the old style EV1 connector.

There are patch pigtails available to go from the EV1 connector on the injector to the Denso connectors in your harness here: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/109_175/products_id/773

There may be better deals out there, but these guys seem to be the cheapest. I like Fiveomotorsports.com a lot, but he's high on these, so I'm going to work on him to get his price down.

 

[JustenGT8]

I should just be able to buy the EV connector and repin it with the pin on my stock loom (ie clip them out of the denso plug) or are the pins different as well.

I'm a def on getting something bigger and these looks as good as any other option. If we combine our purchase for 16 then the price comes down and you could just forward them on to me?

Pm and we can chat details?

 

[stevechumo]

John,
You should move to Southern Cali. You're using all of our sources here. You're buying from Fiveomotorsports located in Long Beach, Ca. I had done business with the owner in the past, a great man. His shop is his home garage. And you also had Mitch Perderson, living in LA, Ca, flying over to TX for the ECU tuning. You're squeezing us dry here. :tongue:

 

[cribbj]

You're right Steve; it seems most of the talent for tuning (especially foreign cars) is concentrated on the left coast. When I ask people here in TX for special parts & services, I get that "deer in the headlights look". If it ain’t for a SBC, you ain’t gonna find it here.

On another subject, per a few posts ago, I contacted a gentleman from the HybridZ forum who is building a VERY NICE turbocharged Z car. I say very nice, because the proper adjectives fail me. He has applied basic engineering principles, and modern CFD design tools to both the intake & exhaust sides of the motor, and it should really be something when he's done. Perhaps some of you have followed his thread – it’s the most viewed thread HybridZ has ever had.

Anyway, I approached him for some ideas about our our little air distribution problem in the Richwood manifold, not asking, but secretly hoping he would run a CFD model of it, and whaddya know:

Here’s the CFD model of the manifold:







His initial run at 100 cfm showed only about a 10-15% imbalance in the flows between the front cylinders and the rear. Not the 20-25% imbalance that Mitch was seeing, and had to trim the injectors for.



He then put a baffle in the manifold, and that evened out the flows even more:

Idle with baffles


100cfm flow with baffle


700cfm flow with baffle


We were scratching our heads a bit as to why the model wasn’t showing a larger imbalance, then he thought that since the SC was a twinscrew, perhaps the discharge was not perfectly vertical coming from the discharge port, but perhaps the twinscrew was discharging the air at an angle, so he redirected the air at a 45 degree forward angle from the discharge, and voila:

50cfm with flow directed 45 degrees


800cfm with flow directed 45 degrees. This is a pretty high flow rate, and it shows the imbalance is still there.


Vector diagram of 50cfm flow, directed 45 degrees


Now, we don’t know with any certainty that this is what is happening, but the model is now jiving pretty well with the real world case, except at the 800cfm level, and I don't know as yet if that flow was also at high boost.

All this is preliminary stuff, and he’s continuing to work the model. It will be very interesting to see if, once the manifold pressures up at higher boost and flow, if the imbalance will go away as it did during our last dyno session.

Stay tuned…..

 

[JustenGT8]

Jeez that guy should hire out his services that is awesome.

What you should also model John is a centre outlet,, just as an 'optimum' case to benchmark against?

 

[mshawari1]

You're right Steve; it seems most of the talent for tuning (especially foreign cars) is concentrated on the left coast. When I ask people here in TX for special parts & services, I get that "deer in the headlights look". If it ain’t for a SBC, you ain’t gonna find it here.

On another subject, per a few posts ago, I contacted a gentleman from the HybridZ forum who is building a VERY NICE turbocharged Z car. I say very nice, because the proper adjectives fail me. He has applied basic engineering principles, and modern CFD design tools to both the intake & exhaust sides of the motor, and it should really be something when he's done. Perhaps some of you have followed his thread – it’s the most viewed thread HybridZ has ever had.

Anyway, I approached him for some ideas about our our little air distribution problem in the Richwood manifold, not asking, but secretly hoping he would run a CFD model of it, and whaddya know:

Here’s the CFD model of the manifold:







His initial run at 100 cfm showed only about a 10-15% imbalance in the flows between the front cylinders and the rear. Not the 20-25% imbalance that Mitch was seeing, and had to trim the injectors for.



He then put a baffle in the manifold, and that evened out the flows even more:

Idle with baffles


100cfm flow with baffle


700cfm flow with baffle


We were scratching our heads a bit as to why the model wasn’t showing a larger imbalance, then he thought that since the SC was a twinscrew, perhaps the discharge was not perfectly vertical coming from the discharge port, but perhaps the twinscrew was discharging the air at an angle, so he redirected the air at a 45 degree forward angle from the discharge, and voila:

50cfm with flow directed 45 degrees


800cfm with flow directed 45 degrees. This is a pretty high flow rate, and it shows the imbalance is still there.


Vector diagram of 50cfm flow, directed 45 degrees


Now, we don’t know with any certainty that this is what is happening, but the model is now jiving pretty well with the real world case, except at the 800cfm level, and I don't know as yet if that flow was also at high boost.

All this is preliminary stuff, and he’s continuing to work the model. It will be very interesting to see if, once the manifold pressures up at higher boost and flow, if the imbalance will go away as it did during our last dyno session.

Stay tuned…..

John,

You are inspiring the engineering soul in this forum.

 

[cribbj]

John,

You are inspiring the engineering soul in this forum.

Thanks Mosab, but I'm just a catalyst ;-) I wish I could a tenth of what some of these guys can do. For that matter, I wish I could do a tenth of what some of the guys here on this forum can do. The welding, machining, fabrication, and general spirit of innovation here is very inspiring. It's a great environment when you can share ideas openly, without fear of being humiliated because your idea isn't "correct" according to someone else's viewpoint.

Jeez that guy should hire out his services that is awesome.

What you should also model John is a centre outlet,, just as an 'optimum' case to benchmark against?

Justen, I've passed your compliments and comments to our colleague.

 

[scotturnot]

Hey John, You back on this side of the pond yet? Any updates?

 

[cribbj]

Hi Scott, just got in, a day late courtesy of Northwest Airlines (well known as the largest regularly unscheduled airline in the world). We got away from London 1.5 hours late for no apparent reason, but the pilot said he'd "make it up" in the air. True to form, he managed to lose another two hours in the air, and we touched down over 3.5 hours late in Atlanta, so I missed my connection and had to stay over. I sure hope Delta know what they've gotten themselves into with this Northwest acquisition.

Arrived home to find your adapters had arrived, and they look & fit perfectly.

For those who have been following (and are still halfway interested) in this build thread, in my spare time (which I seem to have lots of lately, since my 2nd engine which was supposed to be ready for Christmas (yes LAST Christmas), is still having its heads ported) I’ve been fooling around with a dressed up engine wiring harness that involves running all the wiring in SS braided hose, then terminated in near Milspec connectors. Then manifolding all that together in an aluminum raceway, and terminating that in one large milspec connector.

A bit over the top you could say, but a bored engineer with a half built engine, and a catalog of milspec connectors is a dangerous combination.

Anyway….. one of the challenges I encountered with this wiring method is “adapting” the milspec connectors to the braided hose. To make a long story short, one simply cannot imagine the number of esoteric threading combinations there are (nor the amount of hidden, but essential data that’s required for them) until you dive into the black world of milspec connections. Very naively, I simply wanted something that would allow me to screw connector “A” into a -5AN female hose swivel, but noooooooo, you can’t get there from here mate. At least not on a shoestring budget and in this lifetime…. I wore out the telephone lines, and my welcome with one NASA/Military job shop, as they tried combination after combination and just couldn’t get it right. Finally, after about the 8th iteration, they sent me a tersely worded message that they’d had enough.

Then it was Scotturnot to the rescue. I won’t say he came riding in on a white horse, but he did agree to knock up a prototype based on a sketch I sent him, and then refine it from there to make it work. Well, in the course of about 4 days and two tries, between us, we had “the” adapter made. This is the one that a NASA contractor couldn’t get done in three weeks and 8 attempts. No wonder the US government has to pay $500 for a military ashtray?

So with Scott’s adapter (between the milspec connector and the hose in this photo)



I was able to reduce this monstrosity of an assembly:



To this:



Now it's time to start punching holes and get it all wired up.

Still have to find some good heat shrink tubing that not only shrinks, but maintains its flexibility, and is still tough stuff. I had some 4:1 or 6:1 shrink that I used for this prototype connection. It had some wicked thermally activated adhesive in the interior that allowed it to bond to the hose, but it rendered the spring clip in the injector connector useless. Oh well, that's what prototyping is about, I suppose ....

 

[pwd]

For those who have been following (and are still halfway interested) in this build thread,

Still interested and amazed at the lengths you are going to to achieve what you want.

Big thumbs up.

 

[scotturnot]

John,
Glad to see you made it back! Also, I am glad the fittings fit, A quick rub on the buffing wheel would make them shine, not sure how much bling you are looking for but with Braided harnesess I am guessing quite a bit.

 

[cribbj]

Thanks PWD & Scott, well it keeps the hobby interesting to try new things doesn't it?

I have a dumb Q for those of you who have actually finished your engines, or have a completely assembled motor sitting where you can look at it?

There's a set of three tapped holes on the outboard side of each head, just below the valve covers. Are these holes used for anything? If not, I may use them to mount my wiring raceway. Ideally I'd like to put the raceways inside the Vee, but things are just too crowded in there.

Here's the holes I'm on about:

 

[JustenGT8]

Nothing crtical as i use them for something else on my engine.

I see you are ready to go turbo as well