Supercharge and turbo on the same motor?

[jibbby]

Curious has anyone combined a supercharger and turbo on the same motor?.. I think it's possible according to the picture below... That would be wild on a 1UZ-FE.. Double the boost and double the trouble too. Has anyone ever thought about it or seen one?

 

[cribbj]

I've always been intrigued with this idea and it's been talked about on this forum several times. IMO it combines the best of both technologies - the blower for instant, no lag response, and the turbo for higher boost.

Some people have actually done it with other motors, either inline 4 or 6 cylinder configurations, but there's no reason why it wouldn't work on a V8.

It's certainly not a cheap way to make HP, but then with hotrodding, some of us do stranger things "just because we can".

Do a Google search on "Twin Charging" or "Compound Charging" and you should get some hits. IIRC, the old Autocar F1 cars from the 30's or 40's did it, and I'm sure there are others.

 

[skid]

Isn't the F40 twin turbo and supercharged?

 

[Lextreme II]

I have mentioned Compound Charging few times in this forum. However, the biggest problem I faced was how and when does the car know which system to get air from? Does the turbo or turbos pump air into the supercharger as if it is the intake air or supercharger has it own inlet air?

 

[jibbby]

The supercharger would be efficent at lowend rpm's and the turbo would help with the topend power...ECU management would be the ticket I would think to run the combo....(ignition, timing, etc..)

Like Cribbs said you get the best of both worlds...That is what gave me the idea to find the pic and post the idea.....Wild.....

 

[Edwin_S]

I have mentioned Compound Charging few times in this forum. However, the biggest problem I faced was how and when does the car know which system to get air from? Does the turbo or turbos pump air into the supercharger as if it is the intake air or supercharger has it own inlet air?

You can make the SC suck trough the turbo, helping the spoolup. And by using a one way valve, prevent the SC from blowing in it's own intake.

Like this:

 

[Lextreme]

Isn't the F40 twin turbo and supercharged?

Nope, no supercharger in the F40, just the two turbos.

 

[stevechumo]

When combining with both supercharger and turbocharger, the intake manifold can have 2 air inlets. 1 is for supercharger and 1 is for the turbocharger located below the supercharger. In this case, they don't conflict with each other. Both of them will blow into the combustion chamber together, and they all have their own bypass valves. But for this double-the-trouble, I'd go for a twin turbo instead. The new turbos are very efficient these days.

 

[Anaema]

i myself have seen it done on an episode of Trucks, when Stacy David was still the host, and they showed how deisels operate and how they are fixed. they just routed the turbo directly into the supercharger, which was a Roots blower i think.

 

[1uzvl]

i myself have seen it done on an episode of Trucks, when Stacy David was still the host, and they showed how deisels operate and how they are fixed. they just routed the turbo directly into the supercharger, which was a Roots blower i think.

Im pretty sure the old GM deisels were like that.Had a turbo going into a blower mounted between the v.But there are two differences,they were two stroke and deisels,so i dont know if they would work on a petrol that has a throttle butterfly.Been a two stroke that can have intake and exhaust overlap i think they were used more for purging nice clean air into the cylinders than for making boost.

 

[rytherwr]

Yep

Puttin' one together as we speak, guys...did you forget me already??? 2UZFE going back into my '03 Tundra. Go to FI registry and look up Wayne Ryther. I'm doing it for exactly the reason Cribbj says...need the SC for low end torque while the turbo is spooling up...we aren't talking minutes here, we are talking about seconds or fractions of seconds....and of course, not too many folks have done this....point is, the computer doesn't know nor does it care where the boost comes from...it could come from my mother-in-law for all it cares :shock: All the computer knows is it's in boost or out of boost..in talking to some engineer folks at Magnuson (the folks who make the SC's for TRD) there is no mechanical reason for not doing turbo's and superchargers. In my case, the extra fuel for both the SC and Turbo will come from my two 60 lb injectors in the back of the SC. If I need more fuel, I will put bigger fuel injectors in and re-tune accordingly...they are only used under boost, so won't affect idle and out-of-boost conditions. Getting very close to putting the motor in. Did I mention it was built for nitrous and alcohol injection also....Hee, Hee, Hee :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2:

 

[jibbby]

Wayne, please do tell.....How is your intake setup with the combination? What blower, and what turbo are you using, etc...Do you think you will have problems?

I am fairly sure you are the first man on the planet to do this combination with a xUZ-FE motor..How does that feel?

Like Neil Armstrong maybe? Thomas Edison? Napoleon? Henry Ford maybe? :notworthy:

 

[rytherwr]

Jibby...if you go to the FI registry, you can find a pictorial, not only of my blown 2uz, but of the stuff I am doing to put it back together...short story is using an upgraded STS turbo system...(turbo installs where the muffler used to be) and blowing it into the TRD supercharger. Nitrous is port injected wet system with its own fuel supply. I'm sure I will have problems, but I've talked to a lot of knowledgeable folks and done a lot of preliminary research...I believe the only delta in the creation will be the tuning without going full stand-alone...I've got some stuff coming that I will keep under wraps until I see if I can tune with it, before I divulge what it is...If it does what the guy says it does, then I think we've broken the code on doing the tundra. Trial and not too much error I hope.

It's exciting but not necessarily fun being out on the pointy end of the spear...especially for your wallet, but that is what it's all about...somebody has to go first....:happysad:

Wayne

 

[cribbj]

Wayne, glad to see you're trying this; I've always thought there was little need for a complex system with valving and other clap trap to go wrong. Shoot, I'm a TT Supra owner - been there & done that!

Just let the turbos blow into the supercharger. Sure there'll be a bit of restriction because the SC has to "suck" through the turbos until they're up to speed, but I'll bet that little restriction will quickly get lost in the bigger scheme. The nice thing about a Roots blower is that it doesn't care what pressure its suction is, it'll bring that air in, mash it a bit more, and send it on.

I'd put the intercooler(s) where they'll do the most good, and where there's lots of compression, which will be right after the turbos. Here, there'll be 1.5 to 2 pressure ratios (and heat), whereas with the SC, it should be well less than a 1.5 pressure ratio. You can easily take care of that heat buildup by shooting a little M/W into the SC.

 

[Toysrme]

Exactly crib. People also have to remember that while a supercharger might aswell be effectively be a closed, air tight, one way passage. You can easily suck alot of air down through a turbo that isn't moving.
Ever seen a big turbo on a little engine? They don't so much as turn until they're being driven around with a load. Where a S/C. You'll want the bypass valve, and maybe go so far as a clutch on it if you value keeping alot of economy!


You also get the fun of running a roots blower just in it's effeciancy range. (in the case of a roots blower.) Even when you're not talking a BIG turbo moving alot of mass. You do start getting into where pressure can make a big differance. All of a sudden you go running 10psi of actually compressed air that isn't *really* even all that hot after passing an intercooler & toss it into a blower. Good times!


Personally. If you're going to the trouble of all that stuff. Mount the S/C pre "normal" manifold throttlebody setup (instead of replacing them with an intrigrated unit). And intercool after the supercharger. If that means it can't be sitting right on the manifold, so be it. I saw a guy take a turbo volvo & replace the powersteering pump with an M45 blower, driven by a volvo A/C clutch somewhere on some obscure forum. Intercooled after both. :0 It was neat LoL! Supercharger on a switch, I love that!

 

[monaro-azz]

This is exactly what i'm about to do to my Ford F100 a complete conversion from a ucf11 ls400 including motor, box, dash, all electric's and a supercharger + tubo setup with two intercoolers.
I'm in the middle of collecting all the pieces i will need to complete the project, i'm going to start with the supercharging first get it all sorted then add in the turbo and associated item later.
The plan is as follow's

I've bought a single turbo manifold off sniper that is the same as the one david phan's using and jorgy's ski boat is making me a water-air intercooled supercharger manifold for the new eaton m112 that i have(lightning), i am going to run the system with a CAI into the turbo(yet to be decided on) running through a air 2 air intercooler and between that and the sc i will be running a bypass valve in case it can't get enough air at idle then through the m112 into the water2air into the motor. i will be running 7mgte injector's to start with and water injection with a autronic SM4 controlling the lot, and maybe a direct port wet nos system(possible a nitrousdirect.com CFN-500). I'm currently doing reaserch on what coil on plugs to use and the best way to boost spark power.

To start with this will all be on a internally standard motor with thicker mls head gaskets and arp hed studs while i build another motor with the proper internals(rod's,piston's,arp bolts,"o" ringed head gaskets,custom ground cams, ported heads & manifold all harmonically balanced and blueprinted & possibly a dry sump setup.)

Stage one(sc only 9-11psi) i'm aiming for about 295kw's at the rear wheels through the standard auto & stock motor

Stage two(sc+turbo 14-24psi) i'm aiming for 395kw's at the wheels on the standard motor and then around 550-620kw's at the wheels on the built motor and built auto(mv automatics)

Should be do-able but still a long way off yet,
Hoping to have the coversion in and supercharged by late jan early feb.
Then get the turbo system setup and sorted by mid jun.

i'm doing it purely for the fact that not many people have done it and the wow factor and yes i know that i could easily get the same power figures with a twin turbo setup or a top line twin screw setup for less money, but less fun imo, and i don't like being of the norm.

rytherwr i've tried to find the thread about you're 2uz but i'm having no luck, would like to see your setup. can you post or pm a link to it please. thanks,

Aaron,

 

[rytherwr]

Too Cool!!!

Man! Look at these guys come out of the woodwork! Fantastic! It is absolutely great to confirm there are other crazies out there who are willing to climb out on a limb with a chainsaw! I might be the furthest along, and will continue to post progress, problems, solutions etc. I would like to run intercooler/aftercooler however, the configuration of the TRD SC doesn/t allow that, hence, my M/W injection unit into the SC and the intercooler between the turbo and SC. I'm guessing I have about 15 feet of 2.5 inch tubing between the turbo and the intercooler and another 5 feet between the intercooler and the SC, as well as the volume of the intercooler..that is about 12 cubic ft of static air the supercharger has available on startup to get the process of moving air started. In less than two seconds, the exhaust will start moving the turbo, so I don't believe we will see a problem with either one of the units being a air restrictor. I too, will break in the new engine with SC and nitrous for about 5K miles and then add the turbo and re-tune.

monaro-azz, if you go back to the main page, scroll all the way to the bottom you will find 'Lexus-Toyota FI registry', I am about 3/4 of the way down the Registry page and the only one with a link from there to the project. Kudo's to David...he keeps it updated for me as I get new stuff completed.

If you folks have experience and advice, I'm certainly open to ideas.

Wayne

 

[Lextreme II]

http://www.lextreme.com/V8FI.html
http://www.lextreme.com/tundra.html

 

[jibbby]

This is truely the L-EXTREME forum...Did not know there was such an interest in this type of setup.. Impressive people....

Now, I still don't see why you can't run and mount the charger off the intake like normal and then hook up a true exhaust turbo mounted onto the exhaust system..Get the push and pull combination working in conjuction with one another from both ends of the motor......Time and tune accordingly and make it all work... I would think with the technology available to us today this could be achieved...Maybe just a little innovative thinking is needed, No?

 

[Tonyd]

I've just sold my beemer engined Cobra to a guy who had a rather tasty twin engined speedboat. He used superchargers to get up on the plane and then as the revs rose the turbo's took over to give him high end horsepower.

I showed him the two Lexus engined Cobras I'm building and told him about my twin turbo ideas and he suggested emulating his speedboat setup.

I do think there will be a problem with available space in the engine bay of a Cobra however.

Cheers,

Tony