Porting heads for more power

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Trvln Nalzmn said:
It increases turbulence at the SMALL layer of air close to the wall. This wall actually lubricates the laminar air above it and puts up resistance to fuel hitting the wall. That would be my guess anyway.
well done at least someone has a done some looking into what i have said
the guy before is the exact reason there is so much bulshit misinformation on the net...basically cant be bothered looking up things correctly and rather than look into some information that as i have said is well proven he would rather make up his own defanition reguardless of how much it not only disobays the laws of physics but also defies 70+ years of motor development

so please messia
tell us more on your ground braking earth shattering reality defiyng information :D

v
 
I wounder why the Forumula one, nascar, WRC or imsa engines doesn´t have mirror polish?? maby someone here could call them and enlighten them about their mistakes in enginedesign.
 
i think you might be surprised....
have you ever seen a cnc machined port :D they alomost look polished but then they ruffen them up lol :D
 
I´ve actually seen plenty of CNC machined heads... and none of them races with mirror polish... Mirror polish is a something that has ben tested and retested by thousands of peoples with results that supports the fact that an intake runner shouldn´t have a mirror polish.

There´s a good reason to why the hitech raceteams don´t use mirror-polish.

It´s actually quite common to do nothing at all after the CNC machine is done, a more rugged surface doesn´t seems to be nesseceary. But the choice of CNC "tools" will most certainly affect that statement.
 
i have seen a few as well thats how i know what the finish is
as well as many race heads
probably one of the best parts about been a apprentace for a works motorbike engine builder :D

:D
 
vvega said:
the guy before is the exact reason there is so much bulshit misinformation on the net...basically cant be bothered looking up things correctly and rather than look into some information that as i have said is well proven he would rather make up his own defanition reguardless of how much it not only disobays the laws of physics but also defies 70+ years of motor development

so please messia
tell us more on your ground braking earth shattering reality defiyng information
I suppose you're talking about me? If so, then yeah, here's some ground-breaking earth-shattering information you failed to read the first time I wrote it:

rarson said:
This is based off my limited understanding of fluid dynamics.
Nowhere did I say that my word was law or that I knew everything. My basic understanding of fluid dynamics comes from heat transfer and fluid flow training for my job as a nuclear reactor laboratory technician. When I said that, I was thinking about the basic heat profile of a coolant channel and how cooling is increased with turbulent flow. I forgot that the turbulence was increased near the wall (actually, on and near the wall). In other words, I was thinking how the increased turbulence causes more molecules to hit the channel wall and I was thinking these molecules were coming from the center of the channel, as they obviously are not.

Thank you for correcting me, but you should not be so arrogant in your replies. Otherwise I might do something like fix all your misspellings (bullshit, definition, regardless, disobeys).

If it's so well-proven, then why are we having this discussion? I see you are adamant about verbally confirming that a rough wall is better but you have yet to provide any source for information to back this up. I was merely postulating, just thinking out loud, whereas you are stating things as fact. So where's the proof? I don't want to here "F1 does it this way, blah blah blah." I'm asking for proof, not conjecture. A link to some sort of scientific explanation would suffice.

On a side note, although I'm not certain either way, I am of the opinion that you are correct. I agree with you, but I'd like to see some evidence to support your argument.
 
Feel free to enyoy some scientific explanations:

http://www.sae.org/servlets/SiteSearch?charset=iso-8859-1&ht=0&qp=&col=portal&qs=&sae_qt1=&qc=&pw=100%2525&ws=0&la=en&qm=0&st=1&nh=25&lk=1&rf=0&oq=&rq=0&si=1&ql=&jsp_name=simplesearch.jsp&qt=intake+port&ofType=ALL

The above link contains 10.951 published scientific papers where intake port desgins are described - no I have not read them all.. but quite a few! ;)

SAE= Society of Automotive Engineers - worldwide organisation for the people that constructs our beloved machines and/or teaches students in those matters.

If you can, get a menbership, it will save you a shitload of $ spent on reinventing the wheel...!!
 
Boundary Layer Theory, by Schlichting, McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc., 1960

go to your local libary and get it out if not there your local university

ask yourself this
i you came to my class and i told your the theroy surrounding this would you still think i was arogant or would you just listen and tri to understand and then do your own footwork to help you get a backround

just as a matter of intrest for you
jet impingement is a method of cooling cores in a emergency
the point of this method id to overcome the problems of boundry layers(in water)
they are a big part of fluid dynamics and as "air" has the same propertys as a fluid when velocity is introduced

i can give you books to read to help you but tuners secrets are not somthing that is normally shared ...it is the reason that people pay for this kind of work and most are quite tight lipped about these things

a qiuck google gives you this
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~rutland/research.dir/intake.dir/sae_960635.pdf
a nice SAE document on them

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:EoRzD9ts0ykJ:www.arscca.org/CourseRecordFiles/2005/08-2005.pdf+boundary+layers+intake+runners&hl=en

http://circletrack.com/techarticles/general/139_0307_coat/index2.html

and some other random crap

you could have easily done this yourself......so why didnt you ??



ps grammer and spelling is no way to judge somones intelect that is why you will find no such questions in a IQ test

im not attacking i just have very limited patiance (sorry if i have come across that way)
but that is a small price to pay for good free information
v
 
Cobolt said:
Feel free to enyoy some scientific explanations:

http://www.sae.org/servlets/SiteSearch?charset=iso-8859-1&ht=0&qp=&col=portal&qs=&sae_qt1=&qc=&pw=100%2525&ws=0&la=en&qm=0&st=1&nh=25&lk=1&rf=0&oq=&rq=0&si=1&ql=&jsp_name=simplesearch.jsp&qt=intake+port&ofType=ALL

The above link contains 10.951 published scientific papers where intake port desgins are described - no I have not read them all.. but quite a few! ;)

SAE= Society of Automotive Engineers - worldwide organisation for the people that constructs our beloved machines and/or teaches students in those matters.

If you can, get a menbership, it will save you a shitload of $ spent on reinventing the wheel...!!
thanks cobolt you hadn't posted when i started to write my last post but you sffort and attatude is very refreshing :D

that SAE document i posted is not bad and is quite relevant :D

cheers
v
 
vvega said:
Boundary Layer Theory, by Schlichting, McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc., 1960

go to your local libary and get it out if not there your local university
Thank you for referencing a solid source, but 1960? That's pretty old, don't you think? If everyone thought like you guys, then we'd never even have the wheel, we'd all be footing it everywhere. "No need to re-invent the wheel, let's just use what we've got already."

vvega said:
ask yourself this
i you came to my class and i told your the theroy surrounding this would you still think i was arogant or would you just listen and tri to understand and then do your own footwork to help you get a backround
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Literally. This is the part where spelling, punctuation, and grammar come into play. If you can't get your ideas across to someone then they'll never get it.

vvega said:
just as a matter of intrest for you
jet impingement is a method of cooling cores in a emergency
the point of this method id to overcome the problems of boundry layers(in water)
they are a big part of fluid dynamics and as "air" has the same propertys as a fluid when velocity is introduced
Are you talking about reactor cores? While my experience is with only TWO SPECIFIC cores, I've never heard anything about jet impingement. As I said though, I've only worked with 2 specific cores, so it's very possible, and quite probable, that I have just never been exposed to it.

Of course air has the same properties as a "fluid," it IS a fluid. Though air tends to do some funky things when it gets supersonic; I'm not sure if water would do the same.

vvega said:
i can give you books to read to help you but tuners secrets are not somthing that is normally shared ...it is the reason that people pay for this kind of work and most are quite tight lipped about these things
There are plenty of people out there who've found what works and are willing to share. I agree that these people are in a very small minority, but in my experience, every circle has it's own innovator(s) who is willing to share the knowledge for the benefit of everyone.

vvega said:
I had forgotten about SAE documents. I really should have searched into the subject a bit. But it's obvious to me that your reading is as bad as your spelling. As I said before, I was simply thinking out loud. The reason I didn't "do this myself" is because I'm not the one spreading words as fact. That's why I asked you to. It's not MY burden to support YOUR ideas with proof.

Another reason why I asked is because for the other people who don't know how to find it, now they can also figure it out for themselves.

vvega said:
ps grammer and spelling is no way to judge somones intelect that is why you will find no such questions in a IQ test
Tests in general are a **** way to test intelligence. But when it comes to forums such as this, there are people who can accurately get their words across and there are people who cannot. Typically, the ones who can't be bothered to put effort into their typing are also the ones who can't be bothered to put actual facts into their statements. Sorry, but I'm automatically assuming that a person who can type in complete sentences and spell correctly is automatically more knowledgable than someone who can barely type an incomplete thought. As you alluded to before, there's a lot of crap out there on the internet, and you can't believe everything, so the only way is to weed out the crap posts from the intelligent ones. And I have to say, it's worked GREAT for me so far.

vvega said:
im not attacking i just have very limited patiance (sorry if i have come across that way)
but that is a small price to pay for good free information
v
I hope I don't come off as attacking either. Really, I just like to share ideas. I guess I just felt that you were assuming I was stating something as fact when I was merely thinking out loud... which is totally understandable, given the current state of forums and people's tendency to do this. I apologize if I mistakenly worded something to the effect that incorrect information was posed as a fact.

Too often, when discussing technical matters, conversation degrades into bickering. This was not my intention, and I apologize for provoking it. I get defensive quite easily. But don't let that stop you from correcting me! Even if I do believe what I say is fact, if I'm wrong then I want to know. It doesn't do ANYONE any good if BAD info is spread as fact.

Anyway, sorry about all this and I hope we can keep the discussion going. Thanks for the links. Sometimes I have total brain farts and can't remember where to look for stuff.
 
rarson said:
Thank you for referencing a solid source, but 1960? That's pretty old, don't you think? If everyone thought like you guys, then we'd never even have the wheel, we'd all be footing it everywhere. "No need to re-invent the wheel, let's just use what we've got already."
The part about reinventing the wheel is about concentrating one:s efforts on doing things that base researchers hasn´t already covered. Almost every thinkable pattern, dimps, spirals, crosspatterns, mirrorpolish, knobs, squares, "fishskin" patterns and so on has ben researched over and over again, both by engine manufacturers, raceteams and of course students worldwide on almost every university that educates machine-engineers.

I´m NOT saying "let´s do as we´ve alvays have done, I´m just saying that what we´re discussing in this thread hasn´t (so far) producend anything that´s new and not already thoroghly tested. I´m not saying that we should stop discussing things because someone already has covered that ground, most people (me too) still has alot to learn in this area and a good debate is always a good thing.

1960 isn´t out of date in this matter, in the end of the 1930 decade (WWII) all sides had N/A DOCH engines that were pushing 100bhp/litre and wery much of the baseresearch in this area were done at that time. Since then materials development has taken quantum leaps, and we have multiplied the reliability of our belowed machines by x100-x1000 times. Today we can build N/A engines with much more than 300bhp/litre on pump gas... do belive me when I say that there´s wery little ground left to cover on the intake system of the static compression DOCH engine and we can today construct engines that still makes the most hardcore of enginetuners wet their pants as long as we´re not bound by any competition rules.

Intake runners with variable geometry (lenght and radius), valvetraindesigns with continiously variable valvetiming without valvesprings and no throttle bodies, fuelinjection directly in the combustion chambre with multi stage overboost and variable compression is where todays basic research is conducted. Today we actually are a little bit ahead of the surface of the intake runners, but don´t take my word for it - call your local university with machine engineering education on the program and take a look at the amount of students that has covered this ground through the years and remember that there´s thousends of similar universitys globaly!!!

You really should take a look at the 10.000+ papers that I posted for you, there you will find papers in the hundreds that covers this ground and your desire for proof will be satisfied, all it takes is that you actually is willing to do some research instead of arguing on the web.. ;)
 
hey all,

I'm following this discussion with great interest, and have some basic knowledge 2 about head porting, not much though,

But anyway, here's a thought (might be stupid)

What if one has a mirror finnished head, like above in thsi post, you would suffer from uneven mixture because the air enters the engine the wrong way (no turbulance) however when BDC is reached air will stil enter the engine from the intake pipe-piece in the head so this might be good. What then if one could reach enough turbulance/swirl befor it enters the head ie in the runners to the head, there are some diesel engine which used this apporach I believe.

so swirling air enters the mirror inhead port which when tappered will speed up the mixture, and the gearter velocity has ads more charge after BDC, but the problem of uneven mixtur3 is solved by the swirl which is made in the runner/ITB,

grtz Thomas
 
Too bad about all the mis-communication.
A boundary layer is like the oil layer between your bearings inside the motor;the main rush of air rides on this layer instead of sticking to the walls, but this is only when fuel is present.
On our engines the injectors are pretty close to the valves, but race engines either use carbs or have the injectors up near the bellmouth.

So it takes 80 grit to produce enough eh?
I had used 400, but haven't done enough of this work to have tried much else.
 
different velocitys create different requirements it is posible to have a boundry layer that is bigger than the port and can inpeed flow
there is mathmatics to work out the ideal finish......im not going into that here

there is also a reasoning behind pointinh the injector directly down the bell mouth
unfortunatly at low rpm this method does not make for good drivability but at high rpm its fuelling is far superiour

http://web.gat.com/pubs-ext/MISCONF99/A23181.pdf


sorry mate but i dont agree with what your saying
forums are here for people that want to find info out
and to be frank the quest for knowlage is not one traveled by a unmotovated person
nor one with preconceve judgements

as for 1960
do you think that i could hook you up with some of the latest documents and you would even have a chance of understanding principles and concepts ??
people study for years to even grasp a understanding of this and you think you will pick it up in a day.....interesting
its called foundations you have to understand the basics before you can move onto why and how..i was under the impression you wanted to understand .
i also wanted to provide you with something not web based and peer reviewed so you could assume that the info in it was correct(SAE documents are also peer reviewed)

next you talk of air behaving funny at high speeds
all fluids have this issue
take for instant the aformentioned water....one word...cavatation..... basically a simalar event to a sonic boom

perhaps a braking the speed of sound underwater would be of intrest to you
http://www.subsim.com/ssr/page33.html

finally jet impingement
http://web.gat.com/pubs-ext/MISCONF99/A23181.pdf
again simply useing google

the net is full of great info
maybe you are to busy thinking out loud instead of attually finding info

just my thoughts
v
 


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