A day in the life of a 1000rwhp/rwtq+ engine.

[LondonBenji]

Hello!

I've finally decided to post on this forum because I can't take it any more! What a great engine! I've been reading the articals on this site and getting more and more addicted to it! Phil Bradshaw's artical on the 1UZFE (http://www.lextreme.com/1uzfe_info.html) is a great read and I just can't get enough information on this engine.

Coming from an engineering family background, engines like the 1uz really interest me and has in fact got me more hooked than how the 2jzgte Supra engine got me hooked. This is a great forum and I love how you've built up so much information and actual tuning parts specifically for this engine when no one else seemed to take notice and it has definitely paid off.

Anyway, to the point of my post. I've been reading and reading about this engine and realistic power outputs from it, I see a lot of people mention that 1000bhp+ is possible but how many people have actually achieved this or gotten near (800-1000bhp)?

I see also that you can buy the Stage II Long Block from Lextreme themselves (http://www.lextreme.com/longblock.html) with a 'conservative' power potential of between 950-1300bhp but how realistic is this and what components would you have to use along side this block to hit that simply jaw droping mark of 1300bhp?

I have a project in mind and I have been researching suitable engines for a while it seems to boil down to the 1UZFE or the 2JZGTE but I like the idea of the 1UZ more. This engine will not go in any Lexus or normal car, it is a kit car so size constraints are not so much of problem, in fact it will almost certainly end up being a very similar set up to the UltimateStreet boys (http://www.ultimatestreet.com):

I notice they also hit the 1000bhp mark? Does anyone know what components they used and how much developement of the engine they did on their own? (It's such lovely car).

I have a couple of goals with my project and I want to hit 1000bhp+.... at the wheels..... 4wd.

(the 4wd thing is a whole other discussion for another section of this forum which I would like to have with you lot if thats cool?)

The problem that I have is that I have absolutely NO concept of what 1000bhp is like. I've driven a Ferrari F355 and I've arsed about in Honda S2000's and CTR's but nothing any near close to the 1000bhp mark. I have heard of people with 440bhp rwd cars saying that they are an absolute nightmare in the wet, so what is 1000bhp going to be like?

The problem is that you don't get many people around with 1000bhp engines to talk with and gather information. So if anyone on here has any experience with this kind of power I would live to hear what its like with a day in the life of a 1000bhp engine (or 800bhp plus), more specifically with the 1UZ engine if possible?

What comes with an engine like this? Whats the fuel consumption like? How reliable are they like this? Are they daily drivable? What becomes involved in 'servicing' an engine like this and how much do they have to be looked after? What 'pick' of 1UZ engine would you use to hit these goals? Would a VVTi engine be a better bet? More reliable? Easier to hit this power goal? What fuel would this need to be mapped to (in the UK we are running on 95RON with Super being 98RON and Tesco's apparently offering '100RON' fuel)?

I am sorry to just unload this massive long post on you with loads and loads of questions but I've been reading and reading and getting more and more excited and I wanted to ask you lot with real experience.

I look forward to chatting with you guys more and hopefully with fingers crossed this project may get off the ground with a bit of luck and some injection of money. If it does I really want to document everything with a LOT of pictures and as much information as I can and show you guys what you helped me achieve.

 

[Anaema]

not to steal your post, but do you know what Chassis that is? could it be an Ultima GTR, or a some GT40 replica?

if you want to know what 1000BHP is like, then try to find the American Supercars challenge on Road and Track or Car and Driver websites that features some american tuner supercars versus the 2006 Corvette Z06. they have a few cars that push 1000BHP and more than 1000 ft/lbs of torque.

 

[LondonBenji]

not to steal your post, but do you know what Chassis that is? could it be an Ultima GTR, or a some GT40 replica?

No problem mate, I love sharing information.

As for the chassis in question it is an Ultima GTR using the 1UZFE engine putting out 1000bhp, have a look at www.ultimatestreet.com and I think www.ultimagtr.net for more ish info and some crazy videos of the engine on a test bed :bigeyes:

Some really inspiring stuff and its basically what I am after, but in a different chassis and 4wd (well all-wheel-drive, but thats a different discussion).

I doubt we would be able to hit 1000ft/lbs of torque with the 1UZFE engine (I think those boys above hit like 650-700ft/lbs), the issue with that amount of torque is finding a gear box that is capable, let alone one capable in 4wd form since you tend to put a lot more force through the gearbox.

The Bugatti Veyron is just under 1000ft/lbs of torque at 970ft/lbs and its 4wd drive. I would *LOVE* to know who makes that gearbox! :approve:

Benji

 

[Anaema]

Recaro i think. like the ME4-12 concept. ill look it up, but im not sure that ill find anything.

 

[Zuffen]

Whilst I can't answer many questions there's a schedule of parts used in the Ultima engine on this Forum. Do a search under Ultima.

The Veyron at full speed is using more than a gallon of fuel per mile! In the UK that amounts to about GBP 4.75 per mile or US$8.70 per mile. Maybe not a daily driver on pure economic terms. Apparently at full throttle the full fuel tank will be empty in 12 minutes! But then 12 minutes at 250mph would take you 50 miles.

 

[Peewee]

I doubt we would be able to hit 1000ft/lbs of torque with the 1UZFE engine (I think those boys above hit like 650-700ft/lbs)

A 4.0L motor with 1 bar of boost will put out about 550ft/lbs and ~450hp.

To get 1000hp (without NOS) you'd need in excess of 2 bar boost and you'd be well over 800ft/lbs by then.

A 1UZ with 1000hp will not last long if you produce 1000hp every day.
If you build a motor to handle 1000hp, and only run it at 500hp, then you will have something that is boring off boost, but will last probably a couple of years.

In all honesty, if you really want that horsepower, forget Toyota, go get an LS7, or something of minimum 6.0L capacity.

Pushing 250hp/L is not a reliable or very drivable thing.

Yes the Bugatti Veyron does it, but they have an 8.0L motor, so its only just pushing 125hp/L, which is a cakewalk for a turbo engine.

If you want to use the 1UZ, stick to the ~600hp range.
Around there it will still be drivable, useable, and reliable.

 

[striker]

so to bring up an old thread, but it's the italian company CIMA that desinged and builds the boxes in the bugatti. (also Mosler Koenigsegg and I believe Frari Enzo)

and the other "recaro" name above, is wrong (unless you're pointing to something I don't know) it's the UK Ricardo firm that also builds the bozes for the LeMans Audi TDI, the can do one off boxes buil I don't think anybody on here has that much money to spend..... 5figures starting with a 2 or a 3

mendeola USA and Hewland make nice transaxle's and a Good Porsche G50 will probably do that sort of power although not for long.

grtz Thomas

 

[LondonBenji]

I'm affraid not old chap, it does seem to be the UK Firm 'Ricardo Company' who produced the box for the Veyron:

http://www.ricardo.com/media/pressreleases/pressrelease.aspx?page=38

Although it does look like CIMA did do the Koenigsegg gearbox.

 

[striker]

Oh goodie missed that part about the veyron and Ricardo box then.

thanx for correcting the error!

CIMA also does the lambo stuff btw, here's a piccie of the 4wd box which btw is a brilliant feature if one was build let's say a Factory Five or ultima GTR. do I smell a 800hp 4wd midengined jobbie...... hmmmm I can dream.

grtz Thomas

 

[LondonBenji]

do I smell a 800hp 4wd midengined jobbie......

:wink: but I am thinking more like 1000-1300bhp :wink:

 

[JustenGT8]

Dunno about 1000hp but i can tell you what a 700hp UZ is like. For starters it's all stock internals. In my 1380kg Celica it's just stupid for the street....wheelspinning madness is a straight line if you mash the pedal and be right on your game if you are pointed in any direction other than straight ahead.

Back down on 13psi and 430rwhp it's a much more balanced beast and give dedicated race cars a run for their money on the track while still being totally streetable.

1000hp at the fly would be doable with the usual rods/pistons/head studs etc and i think would be OK as a streeter...essentially my engine but with more top end so totally driveable bottom end performance and spastic top end. Definitely wouldn't need super low comp ratio or massive cams...any of the mods that significantly reduce driveability.

Once over the 1000hp you really are in race territory only.

If it's a streeter though i'd have to ask why, you can't use it so apart from bragging rights down at the pub not a whole lotta point?

 

[LondonBenji]

Dunno about 1000hp but i can tell you what a 700hp UZ is like. For starters it's all stock internals. In my 1380kg Celica it's just stupid for the street....wheelspinning madness is a straight line if you mash the pedal and be right on your game if you are pointed in any direction other than straight ahead.

Back down on 13psi and 430rwhp it's a much more balanced beast and give dedicated race cars a run for their money on the track while still being totally streetable.

1000hp at the fly would be doable with the usual rods/pistons/head studs etc and i think would be OK as a streeter...essentially my engine but with more top end so totally driveable bottom end performance and spastic top end. Definitely wouldn't need super low comp ratio or massive cams...any of the mods that significantly reduce driveability.

Once over the 1000hp you really are in race territory only.

If it's a streeter though i'd have to ask why, you can't use it so apart from bragging rights down at the pub not a whole lotta point?

Who here remembers Maajola on here? He had a 1000bhp Ultima GTR using the 1UZFE engine and that thing is probably closer to a 1000kg's and he used that on the street.

Unfortunately it seems that Maajola and his website www.ultimastreet.com have disappeared and he has even sold his Ultima GTR:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/96029.htm

:worried:


I did find another video of it on YouTube though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3y7qbSCB44

It's freaking sweet but I don't why he seems to be selling up shop and has disappeared, he is like my inspiration!

 

[LondonBenji]

Striker, tell me more about that CIMA Mid-Engined 4WD gearbox and what-not, have you got any more links to information/pictures? There aren't many Mid Engined 4WD layouts out there, I've been searching and searching.

The only ones I knew of were the Lamborghini ones, the Bugatti Veyron one and the Quaife one:

http://www.quaife.co.uk/products/fourwheeldrivesystem.htm

I would love to ask Ricardo Company how much a Veyron gearbox and 4wd system would be though or CIMA for a Lamborghini one :Eyecrazy:

Above all else there is still the problem of strength, you look at the Supra boys putting stupid amounts of power through their stock manual gearbox, driving it well over its rated specifications, this is because wheel spin effectively limits the force through the gearbox and driveshafts etc.

Where as if you look on the other side, the Impreza boys tend to break their gearbox without even really trying or any modifications, 4wd just offers more grip which puts more force through the drivetrain and breaks it.

Now put 1000-1300bhp through it, and use 12inch wide rear wheels and 8 or 9inch wide fronts with super grippy Pirelli P-Zero tyres and your 4wd system and driveshafts are going to have a seriously hard time!

But thinking about it, it might be possible to use the Quaife transfer box with a few of their 'ATB' LSD's on the end of a G-Force GF-5R Reverse Rotation 5-Speed Transmission:

http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gf5r-rev.asp

That thing is rated to 1300bhp odd but I still don't think it will take the force and the transfer box and the LSD's are also an unknown although Quaife use them in their 800bhp 4wd car. I would much rather use the G-Force GF-2000 gearbox which is rated to around 1600bhp and it is designed to have the power dumped on it but they don't do a reverse version so I am guessing the Lexus engine (which would be facing the 'wrong way round') would be spinning in the wrong direction.

G-Force build transmissions much cheaper than others and they use nice magnesium cases in the GF-2000 so they are relatively light weight where as the Quaife transmission is incredibly expensive.

Does anyone know where you can get driveshafts that can take 1000bhp?

 

[autronic]

LondonBenji:

When it comes to building powerfull engines I'd suggest you get hold of Ahmed Bayjoo, he is well known in
the UK for powerfull engines. An example, a friend of mine have my old Cosworth and he have a
511 BHP/ 543 Nm engine built by Bayjoo. The engine is flexible, it has over 500 Nm from 3500 to 7600 rpm
and max power at 7020 rpm and drives like a stock Cosworth 4x4. It features a 7.2 : 1 compression ratio,
ported head, stock valves, mild camshafts ( think DB14 in/ BD10 out ), RS500 turbo, RWD exhaust manifold,
RS500 intake, 8 green injectors, Lvl 8 ECU with Pectel conversions. Basically, this engine is a pussycat to
drive. The only thing making the car "impossible" is the Quaife dog gearbox with it's straight cut gears.

When it comes to reliabillity Mr. Bayjoo says it needs to be opened after 40000 miles for inspection. The
parts normally needed to be replaced is piston rings and whatever is worn out/damaged.

A 4.0 L Lexus is an 2 x 2.0 L engine and I don't see a problem using a tried and tested recipe to build a
1000 HP Lexus engine, especially if Mr Bayjoo is involved......

The problems begins when you want to go beyond 1000 HP, some aussie blokes with a 1UZFE in a dragster
have run into problems above 1000 HP, the block cracks. They have macined a new billet block, not a
problem for them as they run alcohol, but it will be a problem for a petrol burning engine.
This can be solved by using a 2UZFE engine with a cast iron block, Turbonetics ran one of these.

Another thing to consider is the parts needed to get 650 to 700 HP pr. side. Turbos will grow bigger with
more lag and drivabillity will suffer.
Personally I think 1001 BHP at the flywheel is enough, especially considering 4WD..

 

[WDoherty]

sucky that the only 4 digit 1uz we know of sold off his project and we never got all the details.

 

[Torquemonster]

I replied to this yesterday but the site went down - or at least my connection to it did and I lost it...

so here's the shorthand version:

350rwhp + 30psi should get you there with a very efficient system and 2 biggish turbo's. You want cfm - so go to the bigger side rather than the smaller. They will boost a little later. Twin GT35R's would be on the money.

Don't go running 7:1 - that is old school - unless you want to save money. If you can afford to do it properly - build it strong and run some compression it wil be a lot nicer to drive daily. Use a sophisicated and dedicated water injection setup - that will be the key to a good high boost tune on the best pump gas.

It should be a sweetheart to drive around normally - no problems. Should even get good cruise economy if built right. I would not run it on 30psi very often - it'll simply shorten the life of the motor and you will find there are thrills to be had on the street with a lot less boost than that.

Given 1000hp will only be used for very short periods of time - it should last ok - treated right.

What is 1000hp like on the street?

as someone here said - "friggen spastic"

I had special custom pistons made by CP to turn the piston crown into an extension of the combustion chamber and we ran 9:1 on a twin turbo Dodge Viper SRT10. Made 950rwhp on 14psi with some race gas mix and a safe 860rwhp (1000hp at crank) on pump gas.

With water injection - 1000rwhp on pump gas would have been cake.

My mother could drive it. Belongs to a good buddy of mine. We plan to get it to 30mpg on a trip - no sweat - pretty good for 500 cubic inches and 1000hp! This is the beauty of doing something right - there's no downside - this car is crisper even off boost than a 9.6:1 stock V10.

When you mash it - it is wheelspin city - imagine that :boggled: but by the top of 3rd gear (over 100mph/160kph) it is hooking hard. It goes straight as an arrow - so it's no drama... so you'll want a good chassis as sideways will be...

well - bad.

You won't have the Viper torque or even close - but the power will be there up top.

for the wet: forget what looks good. Run a great big vacuum/boost guage right near your eyeball - THAT is what you will drive home on. If you use an auto trans - a big boost engine will kill you in the wet unless you can drive off the guage because there is no feel on the throttle in an auto - the converter can spool it up while you are feathering the throttle in my experience.... but does depend on how sensative the throttle is.

A manual trans is much easier in marginal traction to keep it on vacuum. No boost in the wet - that is also bad... lol

At 1000hp racing at the lights = no traction. Roll on's are where it is at. From 100kph up with AWD you will waste any superbike you can find. Tho - you can limit boost in the lower gears to aid traction - that could get you a good run from the lights with AWD.

Nothing can prepare you for the first drive. Your brain won't keep up with the car. You will spend 5 minutes changing each gear (so it will seem) thinking wtf just happened? Then WAM the next gear pulls you like a bungie into hyperspace

You will need the maturity of an older head to survive a 1000hp car on a daily basis. If you think you can be a young hoodlum in something like that you will get bit very badly - it's a monster and needs HUGE respect. It'll also absolutely ruin every other "fast car" you get in - they'll all seem tame and boring...

Alas young Yorrick - you'll be ruined... :006:

 

[striker]

Right, I had a serious laugh about you post torquemonster, in a good way! funny way of telling things.

It would be something called hyper warp drive methinks when that stuff gets on boost.

Which is right away why I would like to introduce a different way of doing things. There's apperantly one very good reason why the swedish Koenigsegg firm chose for twin Rotrex chargers instead of 2 turbo's.
a few reasons are.

Rotrex making over 90% efficiency in parasitc drag field.
small light selfcontained dry-sump system
NO gears but traction drive, no noise and revving over 100k compressor wheels
very cool output charge at very high boost applications, so very good IC symptoms
very simple and neat install
cheap compared to whipple like systems

and the most importand one in this thing NO LAG!
knegg has 850hp streetable on twin smallish rotrex system, though the Stig had some real problems with the car on topgear, apperently downforce related (knegg won't put a wing on the rear)

anyway power to weight ratio, you'll be in F1 territory when you hit 1000rwhp in an ultima.

ok gearboxes.

You won't get anything from CIMA, trust me some friends with an enourmous amount of money to spend tried but failed, they just won't do it.
probably the best thing availeble that can handle that sorts of torque would be a 4wd truck box, or a combo of different ellements.

there's no gearbox on the production market 4wd that can do that stuff period! only the Ricardo from the veyron, but those are build on order from buggati alone, so not many chance,
unless you call ricardo themselves. +44 (0) 1273 455611
Maybe in offroading there's something which can stand an enourmous amount of abuse, and that stays in one piece on the street, but I haven't found it yet.
Make your own...... need serious skills.

regards Thomas

 

[Torquemonster]

lol - yes life ain't easy getting parts

A G-Force T-56 will handle it as the Lexus V8 will not make the torque - but converting it to AWD will be the trick. G-Force have a synchro version for 1000hp and 800lb/ft for the Viper TT's. Don't expect 100,000 miles from it - but it should last quiet a while and a bit of racingg in an Ultima no prob.

Am meeting with the founder/inventor of Zeroshift - we hope to eventually fill the gap in the market for us weirdos looking at 2000awhp. Don't hold your breath - will take a whle

Zeroshift makes all other trans options obsolete - it is the way of the future unless business politics gets in the way. BTW - the chief engineer at Zeroshift was chief engineer at Ricardo and was in charge of the Veyron box before going where the future lies.... ;-)