Dual Intake

[4000GT]

How about for fun? I have spend 6 years and Uni and are interested in learning, study, and love working on my car. Intake design is very interesting. Why can it be for the f**k of it? Do something different and interesting? If you are doing it yourself and not spending 2K for an off the shelf intake (which I would then question), then I dont see the harm. I am lucky, I have a great ECU and my flatmate has a dyno

 

[rivmasta]

bit different in my case - it is going into a racecar, plugged into an 8860 and tuned by a guy I trust. It cost basically nothing thanx to the guys on this site and only took a bit over a day to put together. I also did it because orginally I was going to go with cams and higher comp too. pics here: http://lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5638

As for bling factor, yep, alot of that in there too, because its vertical it looks like old school muscle on a new school engine.

2 guys I know racing with 1uz's that have gone for bigger TB's (100mm) one guy with stock internals said it was snappier to drive, the other that he was pulling an extra 700rpm in top gear.

 

[JustenGT8]

How about for fun? I have spend 6 years and Uni and are interested in learning, study, and love working on my car. Intake design is very interesting. Why can it be for the f**k of it? Do something different and interesting? If you are doing it yourself and not spending 2K for an off the shelf intake (which I would then question), then I dont see the harm. I am lucky, I have a great ECU and my flatmate has a dyno

No harm (except the high probability of going backwards), you can do whatever you want for the 'f**k' of it, that is not what i'm saying. Have your play, just don't expect to see much in the way of gains....lots of effort and dollars that are better directed elsewhere if you are looking for a performance increase is all.

Rivamaster, sorry mate but 700 extra rpm from only a throttle body change is total bulls**t, the guy is having you on. Cams are the big flow limiter, followed by the heads...throttle body won't impact rpm limit until those two aspects are changed, if at all. My dyno plot profile hasn't changed from 255rwkw thru to 388+rwkw ie no extra rpm was achieved even though total flow has increased massively.....

Snappier is believeable, as i said previously the proportionally larger change in flow with smaller throttle movement...not always a good thing as can make the car harder to balance. Good ECU and good tuner, may be worth the effort? Can't see it myself having thrown my car around the track quite a bit...throttle response is good even compared to n/a so not an area i'm looking to modify.

Save your pennies for something worthwhile..... or not. What's that saying about leading a horse to water??

 

[Zuffen]

Riv,

Don't worry if it doesn't work.

I have a spare plenum you can have to revert to standard.

 

[rivmasta]

Cheers for the offer Rod, but whats in is in! Accell cable mounts etc are all done and ready so we'll go with whats raceable.

Might dyno later to make sure we're not decreasing performance... but thats for later.

besides, one of hte reasons for twin tb is to have two tps's on the car at all times for fast switch over if one shits itself 100km from the pits.

 

[Zuffen]

Riv,

That's the best reason I could think of to hang onto them.

Redundancy is very nice.

A bit like flying a plane.

 

[4000GT]

No harm (except the high probability of going backwards), you can do whatever you want for the 'f**k' of it, that is not what i'm saying. Have your play, just don't expect to see much in the way of gains....lots of effort and dollars that are better directed elsewhere if you are looking for a performance increase is all.

Rivamaster, sorry mate but 700 extra rpm from only a throttle body change is total bulls**t, the guy is having you on. Cams are the big flow limiter, followed by the heads...throttle body won't impact rpm limit until those two aspects are changed, if at all. My dyno plot profile hasn't changed from 255rwkw thru to 388+rwkw ie no extra rpm was achieved even though total flow has increased massively.....

Snappier is believeable, as i said previously the proportionally larger change in flow with smaller throttle movement...not always a good thing as can make the car harder to balance. Good ECU and good tuner, may be worth the effort? Can't see it myself having thrown my car around the track quite a bit...throttle response is good even compared to n/a so not an area i'm looking to modify.

Save your pennies for something worthwhile..... or not. What's that saying about leading a horse to water??

You have given no evidence at all that its going backwards... thing is it does not cost a lot of money... its just a few sheets of metal. As long as the flow of the manifolds runners is greater than the head consumes for each cylinder, it doesnt matter what the design is in forced induction, think about it. What I am building is greater response and removing it as a future restriction...

 

[JustenGT8]

You have given no evidence at all that its going backwards... thing is it does not cost a lot of money... its just a few sheets of metal. As long as the flow of the manifolds runners is greater than the head consumes for each cylinder, it doesnt matter what the design is in forced induction, think about it. What I am building is greater response and removing it as a future restriction...

Nope i haven't, you'll do that for me once you're done Seriously though, toyota would have spent a lot of effort getting that plenum right and then improved again with the VVT. Packaging issues aside, what do you know that toyota don't???? I said 'high probability' and i stand by that, if it was easy Toyota would have done it.

 

[4000GT]

Ah the old it was designed that way so its the best way excuse. It's a complete error to think the automotive engineers are building production cars for performance in every aspect of the design. Things like cost, maintenance ease, competition, fuel economy, exhaust emissions etc etc etc ALL come into play. Toyota is a profit centre, not an all out performance product developer for a motor going to a wide range of cars for various reasons.

The same argument could be made for the cams, why change them? They made them that way for a reason, what do you know about cam design that they dont that makes you think you can do better? See where this is going?

 

[JustenGT8]

Ah nothing...... you really should read peoples posts instead of firing off half baked rants. I have never said it was the best (either the throttle or the plenum) but it is clearly bloody good and the chances are far higher of you going backwards than making any improvement worth the effort. I mod where the chances of making gains are 1) realistic and 2) worth my effort.

I know thru my own and others testing how and why my mods will make gains....not lets do this for the f@#k of it.

Post when you have 400rwkw...better yet, post when you have 500rwkw and show me how your cheap intake got you there, i'll be very interested and THAT would actually be of use to other modders.

 

[4000GT]

Close minded people like you make me laugh. 400RWKW is **** all yet you run around like its something amazing, thats not even a half of what some people are making on 1UZ's.

The truth is you have no clue about what the stock intake is like. You have no clue why you think the later version of the 1UZ intake is better but because its off a later odel you assume it is. Youre a joke. You just know your car made X with it, which means nothing about its design characteristics.

Clearly you have zero understanding of intake design, which explains your responses getting more and more defensive when you cant deal with it technically. Why dont you go play in the little kids sand pit and let the adults discuss things you dont understand... thats the boy.

 

[Zuffen]

Gentlmen,

You will both retire to neutral corners or I will use my Moderators power to lock the Thread.

Both cool down.

You have clearly differing opinions I will not make judgement on who is right and who is wrong.

By all means respond but keep it civil and nice. Flamming/name calling doesn't have a place on this Forum.

 

[JustenGT8]

LOL It's all cool this end Zuffen. Like i said, you can lead a horse to water......

 

[4000GT]

LOL It's all cool this end Zuffen. Like i said, you can lead a horse to water......

Report sent.

 

[LondonBenji]

Wow guys, chill it out a little, I have absolutely no problem with people throwing ideas at each other, that is a great thing because people like me love to read through it all and learn. What isn't a great thing is when the ideas stop being thrown and the insults take their place. Why do it? :dunno:

You both seem like clued up guys, with real world experience there so you are like gold dust to guys like me who really want to learn. I respect BOTH your experience so have a little respect for each other.

But this does bring me to one of the questions I've been looking to ask for a while, to stop taking over this thread, walk with me to a new thread..... Chapter 1: Intake/Plenum Design.

 

[JustenGT8]

Hey Benji,
Plenum/intake design is a tricky beast. Lots of theory out there but in my experience you really don't KNOW if it's gonna work until you build it. Even big buck race teams face this issue and you see time and time again beautifully made intakes going into the bin as they didn't work as expected.

Now i'm not saying don't have a go but there are 2 important things to consider before you do (basically what i have been saying in this thread all along).

1st off is do i need a new design? Very clearly the stock setup is good for at least 400rwkw. Now some say this is bugger all power but for a street car it's WAY more than you can safely use and i would say more than enough for 95% of the guys here.

2nd point is that because of the complexity of design there is a high probability that you will LOSE some aspect of performance. Now, depending on what you are chasing this may not be an issue. If you are after 1000+ hp then perhaps daily driveability isn't an issue and all you need is to increase top end flow anyways (I'd still be worried about cyl distribution etc myself).

Pretty reasonable and rationale points in my book, who builds stuff with no thought to the possible results?....so yeah, i'm as amazed as you what all the fuss was about.

 

[LondonBenji]

Dude, loose the edge man, seriously, its all good in here there is no need

Thanks for the reply, interesting info, lets move it over to the new thread I created to discuss intakes/plenums because this can get deep! Lets not hijack this thread.

 

[JustenGT8]

What edge? maybe it's my typing style, as 2 finger requires i'm as brief as possible or it takes forever, but that's as chirpy as i ever sound mate

 

[Toysrme]

Oh yeah. Well my Civic has so much horsepower, it has 2 restrictor plates, one turbulance generator, and the throttle plate doesn't open but 2/3 of the way. All factory... Now if you're wondering what that has to do with anything here. It doesn't. Just like some comments here as of late...

e-solver - Assumptions are bad, but most rules of thumb (throttlebody oversizing) are rules of thumb because they're generally right, until proven otherwise.
JustenGT8 - You can lead a horse to water. You can temp ban horses too. They'll still drink mind you, but they won't cause a problem. Cut him some slack. He wants proof passed your word that's what's going on.

No need for either of yall to take it personal.



You two are Australian / New Zealand. You guys should know from birth that none of yall mean anything that ever comes out of your mouths anyways!
(haha)

 

[cebby]

Report sent.

Everyone just chill. We can have a healthy debate without getting testy. Let's not push it to having me close the thread, OK?