V12 from uzfe

[Lextreme II]

I wonder how hard it is to make a V12 engine from the surplus supply of uzfe engines. I know its more then chopping them up and welding them together. What do you guys think? Custom crank and custom heads along with other stuffs. Its wild but do you guys think its possible?

Stock 1uzfe (12 cylinders) with 2uzfe crank will yield 6.0 liters or:
Stock 3uzfe (12 cylinders) with 2uzfe crank will yield 6.6 liters or:
Stock 2uzfe (12 cylinders) with 2uzfe crank will yield 7.0 liters

 

[Zuffen]

You would find it easier to couple two V6's together.

The cost would be stunning.

Better to build a V16 with two 1UZ's coupled (not joined) together.

 

[Lambo]

v16 Countach

What a great idea, i must admit it is something i have thought about doing, what a lovely sound it would be.
Looks like i just found a use for my second 1uz that sits in the corner, i think i saw it done on Monster garage, they just fitted a cog at each end of a V8 and then rapped a chain around the two but how do you control the engines, ie keep the RPM the same,if one or other of the motors produces 1 hp more than the other does'nt the stronger engine just turn the weaker one, and if so does it matter, would not all the power of the first go through the crank of the second, and if so would the second be able to stand the extra 250hp through it.
Given the firing order of a 1uz any thoughts on weather each engine would be in sync with the other ie: no 1 would fire on each at the same time ? or for smoothness would it be better to stagger the firing, any thoughts. 2 x 1uz has to be better than 1. hehe

Best regards
Lambo

 

[cribbj]

Graeme, I don't know how well two automotive engines would run like that, but I've had some experience doing industrial engines in tandem.

It wasn't as big an issue as one would imagine. We used a torsionally soft coupling between them, and made sure the throttle linkages gave exactly the same manifold pressure for the butterfly opening, then we simply synced the two electronic governors and set them up to share the load equally. I did one generator package and one compressor package this way, both with V12 Cat engines, so in effect we had a V24!

BMW did something sorta like this with the V12 that I'm playing with now. This engine was built as two inline sixes, and each bank had its own ECU, injection, and ignition system. Then there was a third ECU which took care of synchronising the other two, and keeping the load split equally. This motor had drive by wire throttles, so if the 3rd ECU sensed that the load was a bit unbalanced, it simply gave the weaker bank a bit more fuel. Sounds strange, and you'd think there would be a tendency to break crankshafts due to unbalanced loads, however this engine has never had crank problems (although it's had more than its fair share of other problems.)

 

[Anaema]

but the old BMW V12 is a bit of a troublemaker, or so ive heard. hard to tune because the two ECUs, and loads of other problems. i think they fixed those problems with the new V12 that came out a few years ago.

and how would you make a UZFE V12? it seems a bit far-fetched to me.

 

[cribbj]

The 90 degree layout of the UZ wouldn't lend itself well to being a V12. V12's need to be close to 60 degrees to keep the vibration down.....

But two UZ's would certainly make an interesting V16, like Lambo was referring to. I've seen where someone on another board is trying to do just that with a pair of V8's for a lambo replica, but it's understandably slow in happening.

 

[Lextreme II]

Lambo and John,

Can you stetch something on the configuration. So it like two V8s sitting next to each other? I would assume you need a special adaptor for the two engines to the transmission.

 

[cribbj]

David, our Cat engines were situated end to end, with stubshafts and couplings between them, and the generator or compressor was at the flywheel of the 2nd one. So one engine's crankshaft was carrying the output of both engines.

I don't think running them side by side would work in an automotive application, but this used to be commonly done on drill rigs in the 70's where they had several big diesels coupled to spur gears and then to a large planetary, and all this mechanical power was coupled together to turn the rotary table and/or run the drawworks to pull the drill pipe out of the well. Nowadays, it's all done with electric motors, and the diesels are driving multiple generators in parallel.

 

[Zuffen]

When considering the concept of one engine producing more power than the other remember no two cylinders will produce exactly the same power as they can have slightly different compression ratios through (say) larger combustion chamber on one than the other, slightly larger bore giving less seal for the rings or a leaky valve. Even fuel distribution problem through a dirty injector will do the same thing. Taking it to extreme even valve clearance will effect the output of each cylinder.

A V16 1UZ would be a tad long at 700 + 700 + the coupling. I would guess an overall length of 1550mm. This would encourage that long bonnet look.

The second crank would carry the extra 250hp no worries.

 

[Okie]

onder:
I know this isn't what y'all are talking about but in the 60s and 70s there were several dragsters that were built side by side and tandom. Jack Moss, Amarillo, Tx. side by side and George Fina, Oklahoma City, OK. tandom. Then there was TV Tommy Ivo that had 4 engines and 4 wheel drive. Jack and George both won their class in NHRA. The complexity of the cars plus being able to make single engines produce more HP finally killed them. As mentioned the coupling was a headache for the cars.
See Y'all
Okie:firedevil:

 

[Anaema]

The 90 degree layout of the UZ wouldn't lend itself well to being a V12. V12's need to be close to 60 degrees to keep the vibration down.....

thats not true, a V12 will have almost no vibrations in any configuration. both Audi and Renault prove this, as they both have V12 diesels with atleast 90 degree V angles.

 

[cribbj]

Sure there have been 90 degree V12's, but they're oddities, and have been compromised for various reasons. Perhaps to lower the CG of the engine, or to fit a specialised induction system in the Vee, or perhaps they were simply "adapted" from an existing engine.

The "natural order" for the optimum bank angle of a 4 stroke Vee engine design is the 720 degrees of the engine cycle divided by the number of cylinders.

There are secondary shaking forces setup when you try to make a 90 degree Vee work with multiples of three cylinders on each bank. Same if you try to make a 60 degree Vee work with multiples of 4 on each bank. I had an excellent paper reference that explained this very well many years ago, but probably have it stored somewhere in my attic. These forces can be mitigated by odd crankshaft designs, with offset throws, but it's an expensive solution for a production engine. It's true that Audi won Le Mans with a 90 degree V12 diesel engine, but they've changed this to a 60 degree V12 for the production car.

Speak to any engine designer and he'll tell you that given a clean sheet of paper to design a Vee without any space or production constraints, he'll follow the "natural order" above.

 

[Jake Breyck]

two uzs coupled end to end would be a great setup for a streamliner 2000-3000 hp total output wouldnt be outside the relm of possability, geared to 400-500mph and you would have a contender to hang with the top wheel driven class cars.

 

[Anaema]

Sure there have been 90 degree V12's, but they're oddities, and have been compromised for various reasons. Perhaps to lower the CG of the engine, or to fit a specialised induction system in the Vee, or perhaps they were simply "adapted" from an existing engine.

The "natural order" for the optimum bank angle of a 4 stroke Vee engine design is the 720 degrees of the engine cycle divided by the number of cylinders.

There are secondary shaking forces setup when you try to make a 90 degree Vee work with multiples of three cylinders on each bank. Same if you try to make a 60 degree Vee work with multiples of 4 on each bank. I had an excellent paper reference that explained this very well many years ago, but probably have it stored somewhere in my attic. These forces can be mitigated by odd crankshaft designs, with offset throws, but it's an expensive solution for a production engine. It's true that Audi won Le Mans with a 90 degree V12 diesel engine, but they've changed this to a 60 degree V12 for the production car.

Speak to any engine designer and he'll tell you that given a clean sheet of paper to design a Vee without any space or production constraints, he'll follow the "natural order" above.

if you can explain what these secondary forces are, then i will believe you, but until then ill stick to the philosophy that V12s are the most versitle engine ever made. and that no matter what Vee angle, it will always be the smoothest engine.

 

[Zuffen]

For ultimate smootheness you would need a flat 12.

Now let's see two Porsche 911 engines coupled together would be pretty wicked.

For a fraction of the cost just buy a Ferrari flat 12. I would think a Testarossa engine would be pretty cheap. Probably cheaper than 2 911 engines.

 

[Anach]

The Latest Bugatti Vayron, has 1001bhp, made by VW, it has a W16, so two V8's. on top of that its a Quad turbo. If you got the time watch the Vid, its 38min long but its good. The fastest road legal car in the world, I think if everyone on the forum chipped in $2000 we could get 1. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YAdKOTPw9Q&mode=related&search=

 

[damon]

Anach,

Perhaps they turned 2 W8's into a W16 but no way they did it from two V8's. Perhaps they just elongated the Crewe made W12 in the Phaeton , Audis & Bentleys??? The "W" refers to the arrangement of the cylinders. In a V engine the cylinders are at 2 angles, 4 angles in a "W".

 

[striker]

That would be 4 x 2/3 of an VR6 VW rabit engine merged together.

the later Vr6 looks like an inline engine but isn't the case, 10.6degrees between the banks in one block, so the 2 banks of VR6 cylinders are then merged in a 72 degrees single cylinder block, and joined by only 1 very trick looking crankshaft.

here's a piccie of the Bugatti engine with the CIMA transmission below it.

funny is that the engine is in the car backwards and the transaxle runs all the wat to the rear (actually front) of the engine. makes for an easy belt change on a middy that's for sure.

I've previously (vw buggy days) designed a cog to join 2 subaru boxers in one so creating a boxer8 but didn't build it because the last cranck wasn't up to the task,
seeing this CIMA thing however makes for one solution, the COG that links the cranks could be made carieing a gear, and using a 1:1 dropgear (like the BMC engines) to the inputshaft of the box, would eliminate the problem of the back crank carieing all the power and thus breaking,
**** why haven't I thought this up 6 years ago, that would be one awsome sounding beachbuggy hmmm

grtz Thomas

 

[Bergmen]

Sure there have been 90 degree V12's, but they're oddities, and have been compromised for various reasons. Perhaps to lower the CG of the engine, or to fit a specialised induction system in the Vee, or perhaps they were simply "adapted" from an existing engine.

The "natural order" for the optimum bank angle of a 4 stroke Vee engine design is the 720 degrees of the engine cycle divided by the number of cylinders.

There are secondary shaking forces setup when you try to make a 90 degree Vee work with multiples of three cylinders on each bank. Same if you try to make a 60 degree Vee work with multiples of 4 on each bank. I had an excellent paper reference that explained this very well many years ago, but probably have it stored somewhere in my attic. These forces can be mitigated by odd crankshaft designs, with offset throws, but it's an expensive solution for a production engine. It's true that Audi won Le Mans with a 90 degree V12 diesel engine, but they've changed this to a 60 degree V12 for the production car.

Speak to any engine designer and he'll tell you that given a clean sheet of paper to design a Vee without any space or production constraints, he'll follow the "natural order" above.

Ryan Falconer has been building 90* V-12's for quite some time:

http://www.falconerengines.com/

JMHO

Dan

 

[cribbj]

Ryan Falconer has been building 90* V-12's for quite some time:

http://www.falconerengines.com/

JMHO

Dan

True, but they're in the category previously mentioned, ie "adapted" from an existing engine. In this case the Falconer motor was adapted from the SBC.