Power with 9000rpm 1UZ?

[svsgt1]

Hey guys I woudl like some of your opinions/advice. I'm thinking about doing a somewhat cost effective build up of 1UZ. I want to buy a JDM spec 1uz as that is what I currently have in my race car (can be had for $1000 US after shipping). I was then thinking about doing a shim underbucket conversion to it (still looking into this so any info woudl be nice) and then putting a nice set of race cams (maybe Kelford? any other suggestions) to rev the thing out to 9000rpm. And of course get stronger valve springs. Since I'm going the NA route I was thinking about raising the compression ratio to something that can still run pump gas like 11.5:1 or 12:1. (Is that possible with just buying a thinner head gasket or will I have problems with the valves hitting the pistons?) My race car already has a set of long tube equal length headers and an open exhaust on it. I wasn't thinking about getting forged internals but that is still up in the air.

So here are my questions.

1) What sort of power should I expect to make with a setup like this and such a high rpm power range.

2) Would I need a set of high flow heads to really see any significant power gains or woudl the stock units be good enough?

3) What is involved with the shim under bucket conversion? It is as simple as just buying the shims and buckets from the newer 1UZ engines that already come with the shims under the buckets stock or is there some custom work involved with doing this conversion.

4) Is it possible to raise the compression ratio with thinner head gaskets or will I run into problems with the valves hitting the pistons?

Thanks,
Adam

 

[chrisman]

hi,, one thing to consider is changing the cam timing.. it bhas been my experience that changing the cam "phasing" and timing could help you get high rpm power.. but this would also give you a rough idle and poor low rpm power..
i believe that there are shim under bucket conversions--this would help attain the rpm,, but id highly recomend new valve springs---real good ones..
and lastly--CONNECTING RODS.. i dont think the stock rods would live very long in a 9000 rpm engine..--there are manufacturers that make rods for this,, but this can end up getting costly quickly.. the rods would probably cost more than what your paying for the engine..

 

[Anaema]

its the cams that give you power at any RPM, so yes, youll need a fairly agressive cam. just a thought. youll need some really lightweight components in the rotating assembly. billet crank, titanium or aluminum rods. forged steel might work too, but not as well. ive heard thin wall steel pistons are alot better than forged aluminum, but i dont know how to get any.

 

[svsgt1]

chrisman,

Do you mean changing the cam timing by the way of qdjustable cam gears? And are you saying that you will need to do a cam timing change in order to get any power at 9000rpm with the stock cams or are you saying that you will need to do this cam timing change even if I got the kelford race cams that are designed to make power up to 9000rpm?

I noticed that Kelford also sells valve springs. Woudl these be good enough for a high rpm or ar ethere better manufactourers out there for this. If so which ones do you reccomend.

I also considered getting better connecting rods as I'm sure these woudl be the weakest part of a 9000rpm engine. I wouldn't mind spending the $1500 or so it woudl take to buy them but who makes the best ones for such an application. Woule Eagle rods or the other rods sold on Lextreme's site be up to the task?

Thanks,
Adam

 

[svsgt1]

Anaema,

Yeah I was thinking about the light weight components in the drive train but I don't think it is totally necessary as I'm not making an engine that will last 50k miles at 9000rpm. I'm sure when I drive it on the street it won't see anything past 4000rpm much, but when on the track it would be nice to have that power. I don't think getting a billet crank is cost effective and I was trying to avoid getting forged pistons. I'm pretty sure I would have to do the rods as that seems to be the weakest part. My thinking is that the engines are soo cheap and it woudl take about 5 hours to do an engine swap in my car that I could always just go buy another engine everytime one dies. (i've heard of some of the guys in NZ doing this with their race boats or drag cars and it seems to make sense some what) But before we get into a discussion about that lets get back to the main question. What type of power should I expect to get up there. I don't like the idea of too rough of an idle but I'm waiting to hear back from Kelford cams to see what the idle rpm would be for these cams. If it is too much past 1200 rpm that would be a bit much. But if I coudl generate 450hp at the crank with cams that woud lmake power at 9000rpm and raise the compression ratio to 11.5 or 12:1 then I may just go ahead an do this as it wouldn't be that expensive. Of course the other unknown is how much does a shim under bucket conversion cost. I hear they are about as expensive as the cams. So we are looking at $1000 for an engine, $2000 for cams and shim under bucket conversion, and another $1000-1500 for some rods. So for about $5k I could build a pretty cool motor. But we'll see how accurate that is and if it is even worth it. If it doesn't make enough power then I'll just slap a supercharger on my motor as that would be really cheap for me.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[MikeMan]

For 9000 I would think that you would need lightweight slipper forged pistons, manley SBC alloy rods modified like the Eagle's that David is using.

The heads will need MAJOR work with big valves, top flow work and big cams.

I am also looking at building a NA 1UZ, but I am only planning on using 7500-8000.

 

[SCV8]

Yup, and the intake runners would have to be pretty radical also, all of the stock sizing is aimed to peak at 5,500rpm or so, heads the same.
7,000 would be a more easily attainable limit without getting into exotic materials, fabrications.

 

[MikeMan]

Yup, and the intake runners would have to be pretty radical also, all of the stock sizing is aimed to peak at 5,500rpm or so, heads the same.
7,000 would be a more easily attainable limit without getting into exotic materials, fabrications.

Anyone wanting big revs should use Tony Millars ITB manifolds with Blacktop 4AGE TB's and 70+ MM Trumpets.

 

[Lextreme II]

Another option you can also do is to use the 3uzfe crank. It has less counter weight. http://lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4551&highlight=3uzfe+crank

 

[Zuffen]

For rods I'd get onto the Group Purchase of rods now happening.

 

[turboteener]

You don't need billet cranks, titanium rods, aluminum rods, steel pistons, or any of the above. The Honda s2000 engine turns 9500 with steel rods a forged crank, and cast pistons. Aluminum rods are a waste of money as are titanium rods. I know honda motors turning 10500 with steel rods and plain ole aluminum pistons. Billet cranks are not as strong as a forged crank.

This is a street strip motor. It is not going to live at 9500+ for 24hours at a time. It has to survive the periodic blast to 9000 maybe a few times a week at the most. Get a good set of steel rods, like Crower or Carrillo, a stock crank, and some aftermarket pistons. Replace the valve springs with something much stonger, get titanium retainers, and a good set of cams. Find a set of Solid buckets. Get a nice set of shorty 1 3/4in headers paired with a nice set of ITBs and you will be well on your way. You probably should see about working the heads over, A LOT.

Balance the stock crank, run a light wieght flywheel and clutch and you won't have any reliability issues.

 

[Zuffen]

For steel billet rods get in on the Argorace rods in the group buy. You will get them for half their normal price.

 

[WeasyS2S]

BALANCE balance BALANCE....

its one thing that nobody ever mentions...i dont see a need for billit crank either.
I am working on a 10-11k 5vz-fe race engine myself and this is my plan as of now:

-Lighter Con rods
-Higher Comp pistons (stock pistons are good but i rather get something lighter and higher compression)
-Balancing the crank, flywheel/clutch & rods (this helps out A LOT!!)

Aggressive cams and the usual headwork

 

[BARRY]

the s2000's F20C has forged crank, forged rods, and forged pistons.

 

[DenZel]

bringing up an old thread, but im stuck on this also

What is involved with the shim under bucket conversion? It is as simple as just buying the shims and buckets from the newer 1UZ engines that already come with the shims under the buckets stock or is there some custom work involved with doing this conversion.


i plan on running big cams, which needs the under bucket conversion, what parts are you guys using? have any of you guys gone shimless?

is the 2uzfe shim under bucket a straight swap???

 

[cribbj]

bringing up an old thread, but im stuck on this also

What is involved with the shim under bucket conversion? It is as simple as just buying the shims and buckets from the newer 1UZ engines that already come with the shims under the buckets stock or is there some custom work involved with doing this conversion.


i plan on running big cams, which needs the under bucket conversion, what parts are you guys using? have any of you guys gone shimless?

is the 2uzfe shim under bucket a straight swap???

Can't use the later 1/2/3UZ "shim under bucket" style retainers because they're built for 5.5mm diameter valve stems, and the early 1UZ motor uses 6mm stems. You can machine these later model retainers, or you can go shopping for a similar retainer. Have a look at the supercharged supra thread in my sig, as I went the route of machined 2UZ retainers.

The later 3SGTE retainers will work, as will the Nissan RB26 retainer. Both these are set up for 6mm valve stems. Have a look at Fasteddie's thread for results with the 3SGTE setup: http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10244 This really looks to be the cleanest and simplest solution, and it's 100% Toyota.

The later 3SGTE and later 1/2/3UZ buckets will all work too.

Additionally, Prius shimless buckets will work, if you don't need heaps of shimming (they're only good from around 5.2 to 5.74mm thickness)

 

[DenZel]

thanks for the info, though according to that thread, the question was never answered whether the 3sgte retainers had to be machined...or about the beware when using them!?!?

so can i buy aftermarket valve springs from kelford or lextreme, or i will need to buy aftermarket 3sgte springs to be matched with the 3sgte retainers..

looks like plan is to source some 2uz/3uz buckets, then start searching for all the 3sgte stuff?

any more info about "Additionally, Prius shimless buckets will work, if you don't need heaps of shimming (they're only good from around 5.2 to 5.74mm thickness)"

anyone used this setup? as wouldnt this be the best and simpliest way? what do you mean by heaps of shimming..

 

[cribbj]

thanks for the info, though according to that thread, the question was never answered whether the 3sgte retainers had to be machined...or about the beware when using them!?!?

so can i buy aftermarket valve springs from kelford or lextreme, or i will need to buy aftermarket 3sgte springs to be matched with the 3sgte retainers..

looks like plan is to source some 2uz/3uz buckets, then start searching for all the 3sgte stuff?

any more info about "Additionally, Prius shimless buckets will work, if you don't need heaps of shimming (they're only good from around 5.2 to 5.74mm thickness)"

anyone used this setup? as wouldnt this be the best and simpliest way? what do you mean by heaps of shimming..

Whew..... I thought I was the only one being dense or cautious about the 3SGTE stuff. I think what both Fasteddie and Arnout were trying to say with their photos and comments is that the 3SGTE stuff will work fine, but perhaps the spring perches need some machining, or the retainers sit higher or lower on the stems, etc. I'm at the point with my 2nd engine that I also need to sort the valvetrain, so I intend to pick up some samples of 3SGTE hardware and see how it fits and perhaps discover then what Arnout was hinting at.

Concerning the Prius shimless buckets, I used these in my last engine, and they work well, but as I mentioned above, their range of thickness is limited. I actually had to use the thickest ones plus the "shim under" setup to get the amount of shimming that engine needed with the reground cams. Example: if you take 2mm off the heels of the cam lobes, then you need to find 2mm more shim to take up the difference (unless you want to replace 32 valves!). Then you'll get the 2mm of additional lift at the nose.

If you get your valve stems setup just right, where you need only the shimless buckets, even then (IMO) you still run the risk of having to change some of these buckets if/when your valves recess (or bed in) slightly. Me, I'd rather have to change a few $4 shims than a few $15 shimless buckets, but at the end of the day, the price of the parts isn't going to be that prohibitive either way; it's the nuisance of having to pull the cams to reshim the valves.

 

[Zuffen]

A word of warning on Kelford springs.

I purchased a matched set of cams and springs to suit from Kelford's.

When the heads were assembled the springs became coil bound with only 8.38mm of lift.

We ended up using Ford XR6 springs as they fitted and didn't bind plus gave us the seat pressures we needed.

 

[JustenGT8]

Just for info...all toyota rods are forged. UZ rods are sintered,, which is a different type of forging technique but 'forged' none the less.

Funny how all the yayers have never built a 9000rpm UZ, yet know it'll be fine?

I know of 2 UZ built here locally to spin to 9000rpm and both broke...one multiple times. Both had over $10K US spent on them by guys who really know their ****.

This is NOT a trivial engine build. rpm increase results in an exponential increase in engine stresses....even a small increase in rpm over the factory redline can (and often will) result in shortened engine life.

Every part of the engine essentially needs to be upgraded and anything that isn't becomes the weakest link....you only need one weak link for a failure.

food for though before you waste your effort.

PS oiling and cam pins were two issues these guys came across that resulted in blown engines.