Porting intake manifold, larger tb vs. itb's

[cribbj]

John, not to stoke this fire up any more, but there are "dirt cheap" ITB's to be had on eBay from motorcycles (the favorites are the Suzuki GSXR's, particularly the Hayabusas), and people are adapting these with great success to Honda and Toyota 4 cylinder car engines.

You can pick up a set of 4 of these things for $100; sometimes a lot less than that.

I think I've probably got enough of these cheapie ITB's at my house now to do 2 x V12 motors, 'cause I got a bit carried away when some great deals on them came along.

Now I'm up to my *ss in cheap ITB's and really don't have a good project for them.

 

[jibbby]

Johnny....The ITB's are cheap on ebay by themselves as I've seen them too...What gets pricey is all the other stuff involved, like the intake manifold, all the fab and custom work involved to hook everything up right, throttle, changing over to MAP, ECU, tuning, etc...It all adds up very quickly...

John, your not stroking up any additional fire here...I got a little heated for a second or too...I guess when someone like Jake says all your posts are full of crap that can hit a cord for some...

 

[cribbj]

Well shoot, I've got at least 20-24 of these silly things sitting around, plus 1 or 2 lower intakes for the 1UZ. Hmmmm.......

I don't think the fabrication would be that tough - these things can be readily adapted to just about anything since they have spigot collar type mounting. It looks like sin, but it's functional.

Setting up the MAP wouldn't be bad either - these things already have beaucoup little vacuum ports, so you'd header them all together, put in a little accumulator, and voila. Plus their TPS's are already compatible with any good EMS so you'd run a hybrid MAP/TPS setup. Probably the toughest thing would be setting up the throttle linkage between the two banks.

I really ought to have a go and see how this intake would turn out; I'm sure it would look really ghetto, but be very functional. But then I'd need another 1UZ to put them on, and a lightweight little car to put the motor in, and about then, people would start asking me if I was related to some guy named David out in Cali. who has more UZ hotrods than he knows what to do with.

 

[Tacoma_Kyle]

Ok if everyone is going to get all intesne---whats are IBS (IBT's lol) for?

Dont they just equalize pressures in all cylinders and kinda a attempt at matching intake manifold pressure pulses?

My room mate got some from some Nissan car to put on his SR20DET. They are hyped, in much beside a stock senario I dont see how modifying a existing vehicle will yield much gain.


But yeah you all suck and so do I.

 

[Ursus]

Ok, I can agree the ItB's is not track use only...I stand corrected...Just every application I have seen just wasn't up for that street worthy task...

Well said Ursus...A man with intellegence and true experience with his posts...

why thank you jibby =)

 

[Jake Breyck]

wow well i shouldnt even bother to reply but damn, seriously if you dont know how to do somthing cheaply it doesnt mean other people dont know how to.

Im accually shocked that on a forum where most members are putting motors in cars that where never ment to be, the concept of fabbing up a manifold is so hard to grasp. seriosly even to do it really nice and use some sr20 or 20v itbs the materal cost to make the manifold would be a stock manifold and some scrap metel from the local metal recycler, and i hope you people can afford or own a drill press. where not talking about makeing time machines here.

I guess when someone like Jake

I dont even want to know what your trying to get at with this..

 

[Tacoma_Kyle]

Not everyone has a auminum capable welder---TIG or spool gun MIG.

Even if I did I wouldnt want ITB's, for a 4cyl why not? But not this motor. You just have more **** to fab. Thats basically it. Plus a system that is sure as hell not a garentee.

Was my initial statement on the basis behind ITB's correct?

 

[jibbby]

Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of ITB's if you can create a good functional unit that is somewhat reliable...I think it creates rude intake power on any motor, especially the uz... V8's... I've seen some N/A 1uz's make suprisingly big power with ITB's.. 300whp or more is very possible...

Now back to costs and time... This 1uz-fe intake manifold is designed for 45mm Itb's on the VVt-i 1uz.. motor...It took this machinest 40 hours to fab this... That's just the setup part.. Not easy.. Like I said I looked into some time ago...

Also here is a video of 1uz-fe with Itb's and it's impressive and functional...http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....5FB0148D73&p=0

Well that link didn't grap but it was an awesome video to watch...

 

[jibbby]

This is the video link of 1uz-fe with ITB's...

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/7b692cb1-db71-418e-b4d6-3b5fb0148d73.htm

As witnessed it sounds and looks awesome...You will also notice no filtration and eight throttle bodies working as one unit...

 

[Ursus]

Yeah thats a1 turbos rally corolla with a itb 1uz. They sell the kit and it's not too bad as far as itb's go. Here is a vid of itb's in a plennum on a supercharged sc400 http://youtube.com/watch?v=3ZwM8P-G38I

 

[Jake Breyck]

Jibby, your takeing 1 example and assuming that all others have to be just like it, Just becouse the one car your looking at does not have filters does not mean filters are not possable. also just becouse some dude spent 40 hours makeing a cad file does not mean it would take others emmence amounts of time and money to do somthing similar

its even funner becouse your clearly ignoring the pic i posted of an example of a less then $200 setup. accually closer to $100 if you got a good deal on the trottles.

I guess you cant put air filters on turbos. so i guess those are out of the question on the street too.


But realizing this is way off topic.


I think with a good port job and with or without a larger throttle you could end up with similar results to even the most pricey ITBs for possbly less money. and a filter would be easy to put on.

 

[jibbby]

Jake, I fully realize they make filters for the ITB's and always have known that. The independant cone filters are the most commonly used, and or other custom setups like witnessed in the Ursus supercharger video clip..I always wondered how well cetain filteration setups perform over time on the ITB setups....Yes, they can be filtered and yes I've seen more then one setup Jake... I will elect to disregard your non turbo filter comment as well...That comment again was uncalled for as you continue to insult my intellegence....The hits keep coming from you Jake..... Your full of suprises..:thinkerg:

Why Jake, have we crossed?.. Just say when Lungar, I'll be your huckleberry..:nutkick: Does this mean we can't be friends Jake? Does this mean I will have to erase you from my buddy list?...I may lose sleep over this ordeal.... :sleeping:



Anyway, also with the cone filters which set in place on top of every independant TB unfortunately only draws in hot engine compartment air in most cases, that can be changed of course with alot of custom work ...Again more money and time to consider.... Something else to think about also as you know cold air creates more power then heated engine compartment air....

So Jake as you stated above you can create a ITB setup for $100, now that's very impressive....Can you also turn water into wine?...:wizard:

 

[cribbj]

OK, (putting the Senior Mod hat on) let's tone this down a bit please?

:spank:

A bit of flaming and talking sh*t adds some spice now & then to this place, in lieu of dreary tech talk all the time, but let's not let this escalate too much more, 'K?

This could be a pretty cool thread; I hope we don't have to lock it.

 

[jibbby]

I'm good John... You can take the senior moderator hat off... I am done..

Just having a little fun with the Jakesters comments....No need to lock it up unless Jake loses it in his next post...

 

[JustenGT8]

In an attempt to get the thread back on track som,e news from my shed.

Hopefully those interested have been following various other threads that have identified the lower half of the manifold as the most likely limiter to top end flow. It appears that no matter what mods are made, if you keep that lower manifold then peak hp stays around 5500rpm.

So, as a quick and dirty test i'm, going to ditch the crossover runners (with help) and try some short vertical runners and see what this does to peak hp rpm. If i can shift peak hp up to 6500rpm then i'm looking at 80+rwkw gains with NO other changes and confident minimal bottom end losses.

Stay tuned (pun intended )

 

[Jake Breyck]

So, as a quick and dirty test i'm, going to ditch the crossover runners (with help) and try some short vertical runners and see what this does to peak hp rpm. If i can shift peak hp up to 6500rpm then i'm looking at 80+rwkw gains with NO other changes and confident minimal bottom end losses.

Stay tuned (pun intended )

Im staying tuned, im very intrested.
Also partially due to this topic, Im thinking i may want to put itbs on my supras 1uz now gunna keep my eye out for some 20v throttles sence i like those. and well they are also toyota parts too.

 

[jibbby]

This is a straight six motor with ITB's... Again, no filtration and this is just a random pic I just grabbed..

I am sure this straight six motor is still gutless out of the blocks even with the ITB's......

Question? How does ITB's effect lowend torque on motors in general? I am not exactly sure if you can expect to lose lowend power from better intake flow.. I know what increased exhaust flow does to a motor, but intake, I really never gave it a second thought because most after market intakes such as the BFI intake you just don't see much gains.....

Glad to see your being civil Jake...

 

[Jake Breyck]

shorter runners generally give higher end power wile longer runners tend to give you more low end. being itbs or not doent really matter.
(keep in mind there is a lot more to intake design then that once sentence.)

this is why most car companys try to pack runners as long as possable in the space they have hence the cross over design to the 1uz lower intake. a stockish street car with no low end at all would be horrable to the average driving to work consumer. tuners on the other hand usually dont mind trading a little low end power for more overall power. hence mods like what JustenGT8 is talking about playing with.

really on every itb car ive worked with they never really made a whole lot more power but throttle responce was way faster, felt like the motor wanted to rev before you even touched the pedel.

Ok so the last one isnt itbs but side draft carbs but sence webber makes campatable itbs that filter would go on just the same.

as i would have agreeed with you if you said most people dont use filters on itbs which is correct rarely do i see people bother with filters, i dont agree with the statement that its not possable to use filters.

 

[jibbby]

Recieved and understood... Oh and if I were to have ITB's on my 1uz-fe they would be filtered for sure..Nice pics....Instant throttle response is always good...

Now like WD at the start of this thread stated, can you achieve simular results like the ITB's with just one good effecient larger throttle body mod?..Like swapping in a Larger throttle body and switching to MAP?..

I would venture to guess and say no because your still routing one throttle body into eight import intake holes as apposed to eight throttle bodies going into the eight import intake holes...

However, I am sure a larger one throttle body intake and Map could only help the cause though...Not a bad idea...

 

[Jake Breyck]

yes you can acheve very similar power results with a well designed intake, and converting to map sure doent hurt as it makes cleaning up the intake before the TB very easy.

keep in mind that even tho there is only one trottle body its really only being used by one cylinder at a time.

the only real reasons to use itbs in my view would be the responce, and to a lesser degree the sound and cool apearance. mind you I love the sound!