Enlarging Head Chamber

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brock

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Monticello, IA
I've circled some areas in red that I'm thinking of grinding down to make the chamber more dome shaped. This will also add a few cc's to the head and lower the compression ratio, which is ok since I'm going to turbo it. This will also take out the sharp corners and reduce the likelyhood of detonation. Does this sound like a good idea or am I missing something?
 
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Dont do it. That is what is called Squash / Quench Area and removing it will actually promote detonation. Putting a tiny radius on the sharp edges will be fine to decreas the likely hood of detonation, but dont remove it totally. It is vital..

Do a little research into Squash Area and or Quench Area.
 
Try searches on "squish" or "quench"

CJSupra90's technical advise is always better than his typing ;-)
 
Thanks john... Yeah, my typing skills aren't the greatest. Give me an engine or a welder and I'll work wonders, give me keyboard and tend to screw things up..... :wink:
 
Thanks for the input. But now I have a new question. What effect do low compression, dished pistons have on that since they no longer match up to squish/ quench?
 
The dish formed in a piston does not effect it as it still has the Squish / Quench area. If you look at any dished / lower compression pistion, there is still a top ring at the top that is usually about .375 to .500" wide around the top before the dish startes. This gives you the squish / quench area.

The whole point of it is to force as much of the air fuel mixture to the center of the combustion area. Basically you want the combustion area as small in radius as possible. The further the flame front has to travel, the higher the likelyhood of detonation to accure. Also the cause a need to increase timing advance to ensure that peak cylinder pressures to acure in the 15 to 20 deg. ATDC as they should but running more timing to make this acure at correctly again increase the likelyhood of detonation.

By dishing the piston, you can increase the volume without changing the distance the flame front has to travel or have a very small effect on how far it has to travel to reach the furtherest distances.

This is all why large bore engines have to run a lot of timing and are far more prone to dentonation.
 
On a forced engine I'm not sure the same applies??
As Ed Curtis says being forced creates quench ..
His words NOT mine..
We opened up some Mazda MX6 heads as above..
Had NO detonation issues up to 18 Lb..
If only the fwd gearbox was strong enough !!
Four valve motors have good exhaust evacuation..
Replacing pistons MAY not be an option ?? Price wise..
 
On a forced engine I'm not sure the same applies??
As Ed Curtis says being forced creates quench ..
His words NOT mine..
We opened up some Mazda MX6 heads as above..
Had NO detonation issues up to 18 Lb..
If only the fwd gearbox was strong enough !!
Four valve motors have good exhaust evacuation..
Replacing pistons MAY not be an option ?? Price wise..

It doesn't make a differance whether its N/A or FI, the same priciples apply. Bore size seems to have the largest effect on whether or not you run into problems... The larger the bore, the more likely you'll run into problems....

Yes, people have done it and gotton away with it with out detonation acurring, but they also probably weren't making as much power as they could be either. I've personally seen a test done on two 2JZ engine ran on an engine dyno. One had the chamber ported out to achieve the desired compression and another had custom pistons made to achieve the same desired compression. Both were running everything else identically the same (boost, cam's, ect...). Both were tuned on the engine dyno (which was in a climate controlled cell). The engine with the custom pistons was able to be tuned to almost 50hp more before detonation started to accur. I clearly remember the engine with custom pistons running nearly 8deg's. less timing to achieve its MBT (Maximum best torque) throughout the power band of the engine.

Remember, the less timing that you can run and get a complete burn achieving PCP (peak cylinder pressure) in the 15 to 20 deg. ATDC the more power you will net. The earlier BTDC that you have to ignite the mixture to achieve the PCP at the correct time, the more counter productive you are in producing power. Basically, the earlier that you have to ignite it, the more parasitic losses you are obtaining...

Think about it, if you ignite the mixture at lets say 35deg's. BTDC, that is 35deg's. of crank rotation that you are fighting increasing pressure rise do to mixture burn. This is power that would otherwise be used to move the car that is now being used to overcome the pressure rise due to mixture burn. This is the whole point to fast burn technology and the squish / quench areas are a design feature of fast burn technology.

As for replacement piston not being availible due to price limitation, like the old saying say, "power costs money.. How fast do you really want to go?" Or as I think is should say, "Power cost money. How fast can you afford to go?"
 
When comparing 4 valve heads to the old two valve heads. You can see there is virtually no quench area in comparison.. In most cases the 4 valve breathes so much better and exhaust is fairly much all gone from chambers.. Quench with forced induction was referring to being taken away due to dish in piston etc..
The most part that was machined near valves to unshroud them..
In our case there was major difference in timing, boost, power..
This wasn't done without some expert services..
It's no different to fitting thicker head gaskets..
Though we improved the head flow at the same time..
Tested on a superflow bench..
Methonol engines run heaps of ignition and compression etc and still make power.... Its all in the tune...
My 7.8 comp Ford has up to 50* timing to spool turbo's being a manual car as an example..
Nothing is fixed in stone..
 
Dont do it. That is what is called Squash / Quench Area and removing it will actually promote detonation. Putting a tiny radius on the sharp edges will be fine to decreas the likely hood of detonation, but dont remove it totally. It is vital..

Do a little research into Squash Area and or Quench Area.
I agree. A lot of technical articles had mentioned this.
 
The pads on the RB26 (for example) combustion chamber are not quench pads designed for inert effects, like an OHV American V8. They are squish areas to promote chamber turbulance and a faster burn at lower engine speeds. Mid level engines have the intake side removed and the exhaust side chamfered. Full race engines have both pads removed (the Pulsar GTI-R SR20 chamber is like this from the factory). Removing the pad on the intake side has two effects, besides lowering compression, it unshrouds the intake valves for a substantial power increase and eliminates pocket detonation. Without this mod, you will burn the pistons on the intake side when getting near 600hp. You will not hear the detonation, but it's there. A knock meter won't pick it up in a 700 hp engine because mechanical noise is substantial.
 


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