Ball Bearing Vs. Sleeve Bearing

[Lextreme II]

Its interesting and hyps about ball bearing. According to Garrett website. Its only spool 15% faster then sleeve bearing. Sleeve bearing I would assume standard bearing. With that being said. Its it really worth the money? Normal ball bearing would cost double of a standard turbo.

From Garrett website: The journal bearing has long been the brawn of the turbocharger, however a ball-bearing cartridge is now an affordable technology advancement that provides significant performance improvements to the turbocharger.

Ball bearing innovation began as a result of work with the Garrett Motorsports group for several racing series where it received the term the ‘cartridge ball bearing’. The cartridge is a single sleeve system that contains a set of angular contact ball bearings on either end, whereas the traditional bearing system contains a set of journal bearings and a thrust bearing

Turbo Response – When driving a vehicle with the cartridge ball bearing turbocharger, you will find exceptionally crisp and strong throttle response. Garrett Ball Bearing turbochargers spool up 15% faster than traditional journal bearings. This produces an improved response that can be converted to quicker 0-60 mph speed. In fact, some professional drivers of Garrett ball-bearing turbocharged engines report that they feel like they are driving a big, normally aspirated engine.

Tests run on CART turbos have shown that ball-bearings have up to half of the power consumption of traditional bearings. The result is faster time to boost which translates into better drivability and acceleration.

On-engine performance is also better in the steady-state for the Garrett Cartridge Ball Bearing

 

[turboteener]

Ball bearing turbos are not rebuildable. Production manufactures will not use them because of durability issues.

I personally would like to take a ball bearing center housing and put a T3 turbine in it and a T4 compressor wheel and run it, then take all the guts and swap them into a non ballbearing housing and test again. I would be you wouldn't notice that much difference. One of the benefits of the GT series turbos is the much more efficent wheel designs. That is where the majority of the improvements come from.

 

[Lextreme II]

Do u think the CHRA is interchangeable?

 

[200sx-v8]

When it comes to ball bearing, everyone always just talks about Garrett turbo's, but Turbonetics has alot of them to.

Anyone know if Turbonetics ball bearing turbos can be rebuilt?

 

[JBrady]

Turbonetics ball bearing option turbos use standard floating sleeve bearings with a ceramic ball bearing that replaces only the thrust bearing. Standard turbos have 3 bearings, two floating sleeves and one thrust. Yes, they can be rebuilt.

The factory Garrett GT-R ball bearing turbos use a two ball bearing races in a single tube race. The ball bearings support both rotational and thrust loads.

Sleeve bearings are solid metal float on a film of oil on both their outside and inside surface and typically rotate at 1/2 shaft speed.

Sleeve bearings:

Roller bearings:

Roller bearings are actually considered very strong and durable. Factory Garrett claims:
"Reduced Oil Flow – The ball bearing design reduces the required amount of oil required to provide adequate lubrication. This lower oil volume reduces the chance for seal leakage. Also, the ball bearing is more tolerant of marginal lube conditions, and diminishes the possibility of turbocharger failure on engine shut down.

Improved Rotordynamics and Durability – The ball bearing cartridge gives better damping and control over shaft motion, allowing enhanced reliability for both everyday and extreme driving conditions. In addition, the opposed angular contact bearing cartridge eliminates the need for the thrust bearing commonly a weak link in the turbo bearing system.

Competitor Ball Bearing Options – Another option one will find is a hybrid ball bearing. This consists of replacing only the compressor side journal bearing with a single angular contact ball bearing. Since the single bearing can only take thrust in one direction, a thrust bearing is still necessary and drag in the turbine side journal bearing is unchanged. With the Garrett ball bearing cartridge the rotor-group is entirely supported by the ball bearings, maximizing efficiency, performance, and durability.

Ball Bearings in Original Equipment – Pumping up the MAZDASPEED Protegé’s heart rate is a Garrett T25 turbocharger system. With Garrett technology on board, the vehicle gains increased acceleration without sacrificing overall efficiency and it has received many rave reviews from the world’s top automotive press for it’s unprecedented performance."

 

[turboteener]

The T25 is a small nonballbearing turbo. It originally came on the 2nd Gen Eclipse and Talons. Not a good choice for a performance turbo.

ONe reason OEMs will not use them is cost. The cost can't be offset. But look at it this way. Porsche has a phenomenal product. It is very good at what it does. Porsche can use anything that it wants in its product and they don't use ball bearing turbos for a reason. Porsche engineers don't feel that they are durable enough for production use.

Remember OEs have to deal with things like daily driving, poor maintainence, warranty and government regulations.

 

[JBrady]

The T25 is a small nonballbearing turbo. It originally came on the 2nd Gen Eclipse and Talons. Not a good choice for a performance turbo.

ONe reason OEMs will not use them is cost. The cost can't be offset. But look at it this way. Porsche has a phenomenal product. It is very good at what it does. Porsche can use anything that it wants in its product and they don't use ball bearing turbos for a reason. Porsche engineers don't feel that they are durable enough for production use.

Remember OEs have to deal with things like daily driving, poor maintainence, warranty and government regulations.

Regarding the T25... I copied the above directly from Garretts turbo page: go to the page bottom
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html

Some more info directly from Garrett:
If there's an "R" on the end of a model name, this means the unit is ball bearing. So, a GT4294 is not ball bearing; whereas a GT4294R is ball bearing.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/gt_basics.html

List of GT25R roller bearing turbos
GT2554R - 471171-3
GT2560R - 466541-1
GT2560R - 466541-4

 

[JBrady]

Garrett actually claims better reliability with the roller bearings.

Quote:

"Garrett's ball bearing cartridge has proven its worth in the highest level of motorsports where it has been the bearing system of choice in CART FEDEX ChampCar Series, 24 Hours of Le Mans, Pikes Peak International Hill Climb, World Rally Championship, and most recently Drag Racing. These premier racing customers demand no less than the best in durability, reliability, and power on demand. One key contributor to this performance lies in the ball bearing cartridge where it is, by design, surrounded by a thin film of oil. The oil film damps out destructive vibrations that would otherwise compromise turbo durability.

A clear demonstration of the inherent superiority of Garrett's ball bearing design is in the launch of a turbocharged drag race car. The two-step rev limiters used to build boost on the line expose the turbo to the harshest imaginable conditions of pressure spikes and scorching temperatures. Where lesser turbos often fail catastrophically, Garrett ball bearing turbos regularly shrug off these brutal conditions time after time. In fact, many drag racers running Garrett ball bearing turbos have not needed to rebuild or replace their turbos for multiple seasons. Can you say that about your turbo?

Combined with the aerodynamically advanced Garrett GT wheel design, Garrett GT ball bearing turbos provide improved drivability and power on demand."
Source http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/products/turbochargers.html

 

[JustenGT8]

Yup, quicker spool up is one benefit but relatively minor (having run very similar spec of both on my GT4 Celica) and other sizing aspects of a turbo have a much greater impact on spool up. It's the extra rpm and huge thrust loads BB turbos can take that make them attractive over plain bearings, particularly for comp use. You almost can't overspeed them.

 

[turboteener]

I know what Garrett claims. I am also familiar with guys using pretty sizable turbos on a street car and claiming the ball bearings as the reason why. But no one has done a true objective back to back test.

I have no doubt that ball bearings can be better. ALthough this could go into the argument that ball bearings don't do so well in a crankshaft why would they do any better than dynamic oil wedge in a turbo.

I won't argue that having a roller thrust bearing is a good idea, it should cut wear dramatically.

 

[Toysrme]

180* bearings are slow 360* bearings are faster, ball bearings are faster still. My opinion is that if you keep the wastegate from creeping when you're racing by a set pop-off valve, and/or long actuator tube + a properly sized surge tank. You'll get faster responce than any change in bearings will make.
Just keep in mind doing that on a street car. If there was must wastegate creep to begin with. It's going to drive much, much different. They don't transition nicely into boost on a fairly well responding turbo. They slam into it with a running start lol! Literally.

There are plenty of OEM's using ball bearing CHRA's. Look at both Saab & BMW. Both have been using IHI & Garrett BB-CHRA's for awhile now. Not only that, but atleast Garrett quality, if not exceeding them is Holset. Their HX line uses ballbearings & are common. I'm not sure, but I think their HY's also had the option of a BB-CHRA in their later years.

 

[Edwin_S]

When it comes to ball bearing, everyone always just talks about Garrett turbo's, but Turbonetics has alot of them to.

As far as I know, Turbonetics just uses the Garrett core, en puts on their own turbine and compressor housings.

 

[Toysrme]

Ditto. Alot of people use other people's turbo's. Precision, turbonetics, HKS all use Garrett. Apexi uses IHI.

 

[Lextreme II]

How do you guys compare the two compressor maps. One is T3/60-1 with T04S and the second map is GT35R.
Option # 2:
COMPRESSOR SPECS:T04S housing
flow: 61 lbs/min 781cfm
.70 A/R housing
60 TRIM wheel
TURBINE SPECS:T3
.63 A/R housing
HIGH FLOW 76 TRIM stg 3 wheel
oil lubricated centersection.
for use with external wastegate.
COMES STANDARD WITH 360 DEGREE THRUST BEARING!!!
supportable of 575 whp

As for price the GT35R is about $1,300 and the T3 is about $650

 

[turboteener]

I agree, using an electronic solenoid for boost control is the way to fly. To hell with this vaccum accuated signal garbage. If your wastegate doesn't crack until boost pressure reaches the set level things are mo' better. Plus with a solenoid you can do cool stuff like PWM that sucker and get some boost by gear/load features.

 

[turboteener]

You can't compare them. They definitely aren't the same. They have two different efficency zones and applications.

 

[JBrady]

Here is a decent tech page that may help people understand what is going on with a compressor and engine combination at various boost levels and RPM ranges. Certainly the data is based on assumptions and estimates but the ideas are pretty good.

http://www.mygen.com/users/dbruce/m...Engine Air Flow and Turbo Compressor Maps.htm

 

[rarson]

A guy once posted a video of his ball-bearing turbo spinning down after the engine shut off. It was literally spinning well over a minute before it stopped, it was incredible.

The big benefit from ball-bearing CHRA's is spooling between shifts. It's much reduced over standard journal bearings.

But I'll also agree with what was said above, a big reason the GT turbos are so good is because of their turbine wheels.

 

[turboteener]

Hydrodynamic bearings are not as ineffective as people make them out to be. In reality there is very little friction with either design. I can assure you the friction associated with oil bearings is marginal at full spool, compared to the inertia generated by the turbine and compressor wheels.

Modern wheel design will have a larger effect on spool time than bearing design.