Thanks verylost for backing me up as far as an engineering perspective goes. I'm currently a 2nd year mechanical engineering student. I havn't taken any real thermodynamics courses yet, but I have read enough and talked with enough major tuners to understand the issues with water to air.
Air to Air or Water to Air (Round 1)
- Thread starter Lextreme II
- Start date
The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
John
I don't recommend PWR...
I do recommend ARE.
Lextreme II
Just call me "Lex"
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To sum up. Its all depend on your application. Short and all out application would be W2A. Daily driver would be A2A. The complexity of setting it up would be 4 times as much and the cost would be about 2-3x as a FMIC.
The more complexity it is the more chance thing can go wrong. In theory, both have pros and cons, but in reality would be different.
Lets break down the cost
A2A
1. Custom FMIC = 400
W2A
2. Custom W2A IC = 300-400?
3. Pump = 100-125?
4. Heat = Exchanger = 100-300?
5. Reservior = 50-70?
6. Hoses = 40-50?
As comparing the price ( I am guessing and i can be way off) the A2A is about 400 and W2A is about 750.
The more complexity it is the more chance thing can go wrong. In theory, both have pros and cons, but in reality would be different.
Lets break down the cost
A2A
1. Custom FMIC = 400
W2A
2. Custom W2A IC = 300-400?
3. Pump = 100-125?
4. Heat = Exchanger = 100-300?
5. Reservior = 50-70?
6. Hoses = 40-50?
As comparing the price ( I am guessing and i can be way off) the A2A is about 400 and W2A is about 750.
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One little item no one has raised is how do you run an A2A intercooler on a traditionally superchargerd V8?
The ONLY intercooler you can/will fit under a supercharger is W2A.
Not everyone wants turbos or a half turbo half supercharger in the form of a centrifugal blower.
Maybe us old diehards who want boost from the floor to the ceiling will always see W2A as the best for our application.
There are a lot of situations where FMIC's can't be used.
The ONLY intercooler you can/will fit under a supercharger is W2A.
Not everyone wants turbos or a half turbo half supercharger in the form of a centrifugal blower.
Maybe us old diehards who want boost from the floor to the ceiling will always see W2A as the best for our application.
There are a lot of situations where FMIC's can't be used.
well... I think you are forgeting about how the m90's were set up on the thunderbird supercoupes here in the US. They had a discharge pipe that went into a intercooler and then back into the intake manifold, If I can find a pic later on I'll post it. The point is, even with a positive displacement blower its still possible to have a a2a intercooler.
*edit* found the pic *edit*
*edit* found the pic *edit*
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I'm aware of the Thunderbird setup but wouldn't use an M90 as I want good boost across the entire rev range.
I think you'll find the Thuderbird and it's derivatives were the only cars to use this system. Interestingly Ford swapped to W2A after the Thunderbird for petrol engines.
I think you'll find the Thuderbird and it's derivatives were the only cars to use this system. Interestingly Ford swapped to W2A after the Thunderbird for petrol engines.
uzz32pete
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There is no room in my Soarer for routing the pipework for A2A. W2A front mount heat exchanger is easier to mount for my case. Smaller rubber water hoses are easier in my case than big hard air hoses to work with. (My car has hydraulic suspension - no room up the front.)
One of the things I like about positive displacement blowers is the instant throttle response - the super short air path of a W2A is desirable for me - I don't want to move all the air to the front of the car, cool it down, and then back again in an A2A system.
Factory cars use A2A for turbo cars and W2A for majority of positive displacement blowers.
It's not so much a case of which is "best", but what can work in each case. Factory installations are always a good guide of what can work AND reliable.
For me I like the Jaguar V8 with Eaton M112 blower and W2A system.:
http://planetsoarer.com/supercharged_jag/EatonMP112Jaguar.htm
I took some more pics of the Jag across the road:
http://planetsoarer.com/part3/index.htm
I guess the attraction of the Jag system for me (compared to a turbo system) - is I don't have to deal with excess under hood turbo heat, I still get that great V8 sound (no turbo muffling effect), nice simple exhaust, max torque from idle and no complicated pipework.
I also like keeping the stock intake air box and panel filter BFI etc.
What I don't like is the complicated intake manifold to be fabricated etc. Turbo installation is nice and simple up top - complicated down below. Supercharger is nice and simple down below- but complicated up top!!!!
With all my extra hydraulic plumbing a turbo was never going to work. I love turbo cars - I love the rush they give. I used to own an M90 supercharged Buick V6 in a big luxury car (no intercooling) - the instant low down torque is very desirable for me.
A2A or W2A - I guess each has advantages in different situations. For a boat installation of course W2A is the go.
Deciding between A2A or W2A depends more on vehicle type (hotrod, Soarer, custom install, boat, engine bay room etc) and Forced Induction type (brand/type of blower, type of turbo, manufacturer options etc).
I think a generic definitive statement saying one or the other is "best" would be a bit of a tough ask.
One of the things I like about positive displacement blowers is the instant throttle response - the super short air path of a W2A is desirable for me - I don't want to move all the air to the front of the car, cool it down, and then back again in an A2A system.
Factory cars use A2A for turbo cars and W2A for majority of positive displacement blowers.
It's not so much a case of which is "best", but what can work in each case. Factory installations are always a good guide of what can work AND reliable.
For me I like the Jaguar V8 with Eaton M112 blower and W2A system.:
http://planetsoarer.com/supercharged_jag/EatonMP112Jaguar.htm
I took some more pics of the Jag across the road:
http://planetsoarer.com/part3/index.htm
I guess the attraction of the Jag system for me (compared to a turbo system) - is I don't have to deal with excess under hood turbo heat, I still get that great V8 sound (no turbo muffling effect), nice simple exhaust, max torque from idle and no complicated pipework.
I also like keeping the stock intake air box and panel filter BFI etc.
What I don't like is the complicated intake manifold to be fabricated etc. Turbo installation is nice and simple up top - complicated down below. Supercharger is nice and simple down below- but complicated up top!!!!
With all my extra hydraulic plumbing a turbo was never going to work. I love turbo cars - I love the rush they give. I used to own an M90 supercharged Buick V6 in a big luxury car (no intercooling) - the instant low down torque is very desirable for me.
A2A or W2A - I guess each has advantages in different situations. For a boat installation of course W2A is the go.
Deciding between A2A or W2A depends more on vehicle type (hotrod, Soarer, custom install, boat, engine bay room etc) and Forced Induction type (brand/type of blower, type of turbo, manufacturer options etc).
I think a generic definitive statement saying one or the other is "best" would be a bit of a tough ask.
Lextreme II
Just call me "Lex"
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I think A2A does have its disadvantages. One of them is that FMIC needs to be in a open air like FMIC, SMIC or TMIC. With root and screw type, water would be superior. W2A has the ability to cool with give small places.
I am not sure you guys remember or not. About 5-6 years ago, Vortech and ATI had a huge lawsuit. Basically it was all about which blower make more hp and Intercooled Vs. Non Intercooled. Anyway make the long story short. Vortech was at the end of the stick and make less hp than ATI. Since ATI uses FMIC, therefore Vortech must used Aftercooler to be different. Aftercooler is basically is a W2A Intercooler.
Once again, its all depends on your application like Peter stated. Because W2A intercooler, many cars on the street today benefit from it. For example would be the Cobras and Lightnings.
I am not sure you guys remember or not. About 5-6 years ago, Vortech and ATI had a huge lawsuit. Basically it was all about which blower make more hp and Intercooled Vs. Non Intercooled. Anyway make the long story short. Vortech was at the end of the stick and make less hp than ATI. Since ATI uses FMIC, therefore Vortech must used Aftercooler to be different. Aftercooler is basically is a W2A Intercooler.
Once again, its all depends on your application like Peter stated. Because W2A intercooler, many cars on the street today benefit from it. For example would be the Cobras and Lightnings.
not sure if it has been linked yet, but here it is.....
http://www.are.com.au/Inter/air_to_water.htm
very informative and i would gather, non biased as these guys do both a-a and a-w coolers.
http://www.are.com.au/Inter/air_to_water.htm
very informative and i would gather, non biased as these guys do both a-a and a-w coolers.
Pro
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they both work.
do what you can afford and what fits.
do what you can afford and what fits.
Trvln Nalzmn
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Good info at that site. He doesn't mention what speed they start to have an advantage, or the size of the a/a intercoolers he was using.R-Jay said:
spoke to the guys not long ago... asked them a similar question and we talked for awhile.....
as far as i can remember, it was anything constant above 60 kph before you get any real cooling from a fmic in comparison to a decent w-a.... so for a daily driver, i'd put my money on a good w-a.
as far as i can remember, it was anything constant above 60 kph before you get any real cooling from a fmic in comparison to a decent w-a.... so for a daily driver, i'd put my money on a good w-a.
TOBES
Member
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Take a look at these A/W coolers by PWR in Australia...
http://www.pwr.com.au/pwr/index_new.asp?link=main/liquid_to_air.htm
http://www.pwr.com.au/pwr/index_new.asp?link=main/liquid_to_air.htm
400ZED
New Member
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Just bto throw something else into the mix Lotus used what they called a charge air cooler. basically a W2A but used oil.
If it is being looked at from an engineering point. ( you can not transfer heat you can transfer energy) then it is a matter of how the most jules of heat energy can be removed from the charge air while minimizing restriction.
the reason w2a coolers and heat exchanges are smaller than A2A is the thermal conductivity of water is greater. for a given area and given temperature gradient water can transfer more energy.
W2A cooling can be achieved with less restriction. if it is a properly matched system. with the use of a thermo fan heat soak will not occure in the water.
what about some thing i was thinking about the other day. you have all seen w2a guys running an esxy in the boot full of ice good for a couple of drags. usless round the street. have a solenoid tap on you water supply and at 90% throttle rather than pumping through the heat exchanger under the front bar it pumps through the ice filled esky. under normall driving you would drive all day and come home still with a nice cold beer in the boot but when that GT2 pulls up alongside you will have charge temps 20 degrees below ambient. ( just an extravigant thought)
and there is no one answer if you are trying to FI your rear mount Lotus esprit you will not be contemplating A2A there just is no room or spare air closenough to the engine bay.
Tobes i have seen those PWR coolers IMO the sexiest thing around for W2A PWR do good work and those are no exception.
If it is being looked at from an engineering point. ( you can not transfer heat you can transfer energy) then it is a matter of how the most jules of heat energy can be removed from the charge air while minimizing restriction.
the reason w2a coolers and heat exchanges are smaller than A2A is the thermal conductivity of water is greater. for a given area and given temperature gradient water can transfer more energy.
W2A cooling can be achieved with less restriction. if it is a properly matched system. with the use of a thermo fan heat soak will not occure in the water.
what about some thing i was thinking about the other day. you have all seen w2a guys running an esxy in the boot full of ice good for a couple of drags. usless round the street. have a solenoid tap on you water supply and at 90% throttle rather than pumping through the heat exchanger under the front bar it pumps through the ice filled esky. under normall driving you would drive all day and come home still with a nice cold beer in the boot but when that GT2 pulls up alongside you will have charge temps 20 degrees below ambient. ( just an extravigant thought)
and there is no one answer if you are trying to FI your rear mount Lotus esprit you will not be contemplating A2A there just is no room or spare air closenough to the engine bay.
Tobes i have seen those PWR coolers IMO the sexiest thing around for W2A PWR do good work and those are no exception.
Lextreme II
Just call me "Lex"
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Love teh PWR. Its a small unit i wonder how effecient it is. Its compact and good for small places.
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Whoaaaaa, does this mean we need to rename all those university courses entitled "Thermodynamics and Heat Transfer" ???? IMO, whether you call it heat transfer, or energy transfer, it's semantics - energy comes in many forms and heat is certainly one of them. Electricity is another...400ZED said:
John
TOBES
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Found an editorial on the PWR Barrel coolers...
"While the barrel cooler is relatively new, testing has shown it to be devastatingly effective. On an engine dyno an engine making upwards of 450kw was producing 100 degree pre-intercooler temps. Post intercooler temps from the 6 inch Barrel were 41 degrees.Thats a massive 59 degree drop in only 10 inches."
"American drag racer Abel Ibbara and his K&N sponsored series 6 RX7 are currently using twin PWR Barrels, and since fitment have reset their own record with a blistering 7.00 sec pass" (A 1,000 to 1,400 hp rotor motor)
"The smallest barrel you can buy is the 4x6 inch (rated at 223kw) with 2.25 inch inlet and outlets, up to the 6x10 inch (rated at 447kw) with 3 inch inlet and outlets."
Available as a kit - eg. 6"x10" barrel cooler, 11.5"x9.5"x1.5" alloy radiator with 9" elect fan, pump with wiring kit and a billet alloy water filter.
No pricing though... If one of our Aussie members would like to make a phone call - PWR (07)5598-1499...
"While the barrel cooler is relatively new, testing has shown it to be devastatingly effective. On an engine dyno an engine making upwards of 450kw was producing 100 degree pre-intercooler temps. Post intercooler temps from the 6 inch Barrel were 41 degrees.Thats a massive 59 degree drop in only 10 inches."
"American drag racer Abel Ibbara and his K&N sponsored series 6 RX7 are currently using twin PWR Barrels, and since fitment have reset their own record with a blistering 7.00 sec pass" (A 1,000 to 1,400 hp rotor motor)
"The smallest barrel you can buy is the 4x6 inch (rated at 223kw) with 2.25 inch inlet and outlets, up to the 6x10 inch (rated at 447kw) with 3 inch inlet and outlets."
Available as a kit - eg. 6"x10" barrel cooler, 11.5"x9.5"x1.5" alloy radiator with 9" elect fan, pump with wiring kit and a billet alloy water filter.
No pricing though... If one of our Aussie members would like to make a phone call - PWR (07)5598-1499...
Lextreme II
Just call me "Lex"
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Hey if its that good. Ask them about a group buy.
greybeard
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Some of PWR's "good work".400ZED said:
I don't recommend PWR...
I do recommend ARE.
Blown SC
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Mmmmmm,,
Maybe I should fit the 55mm W2A IC on my car..heheheh Tapo's gunna do it
Bit of a Mustang Hump in the Hood should look ok.. $2,750 + Hood Mods.
Mmmmmm,,
I also can get a variety of pulley sizes now $90 Each
With W2A..I can run an extra 10psi on stock Timing Yummo.
Remember...I ONLY want 12 SECONDS of Charge Cooled...( Drag Strip ) Woo-Hoo
Mmmmm.
And Manual with an R154 useing the Bellhousing I'm having made..
( Maintaining the Porsche type Pull Clutch )
Now what else am I doing ???? Ahhhh to much ..hahahahahahah
BTW..I think a nice HUMP looks more menacing than a Refrig size FMIC
Maybe I should fit the 55mm W2A IC on my car..heheheh Tapo's gunna do it
Bit of a Mustang Hump in the Hood should look ok.. $2,750 + Hood Mods.
Mmmmmm,,
I also can get a variety of pulley sizes now $90 Each
With W2A..I can run an extra 10psi on stock Timing
Yummo.Remember...I ONLY want 12 SECONDS of Charge Cooled...( Drag Strip ) Woo-Hoo
Mmmmm.
And Manual with an R154 useing the Bellhousing I'm having made..
( Maintaining the Porsche type Pull Clutch )
Now what else am I doing ???? Ahhhh to much ..hahahahahahah
BTW..I think a nice HUMP looks more menacing than a Refrig size FMIC
