Project Thread Supercharged Supra

[cribbj]

Cheers Rod & XR8, I'll probably have to go with some lash caps and/or some custom shims as the cams have had their base circles modified.

Rod, let me know what the shim costs and shipping costs are. Much appreciated.

 

[hypronet]

i may beable to help you out with some shims,i have 2 motors, 1 is being stripped for a full rebuild from ground up, second motor is a spare for stripping.
i am seeing my engine builder tomorrow, will see what he has and i will pass on too XR8 if im able to help?

 

[cribbj]

An update on the headwork and valve train: due to the reduced base circle of the reground cams, it looks like we'll be using shimless buckets and lash caps for "my" motor.

During a moment of temporary insanity, I bought David's "LPG Motor" which has standard valves, heavier springs, titanium retainers, and a set of his Stage 1 cams, so we'll be shimming that motor soon too. Unfortunately we have less valve stem showing above the keepers than on my motor, so lash caps may not be a good solution. I may have to change out those beautiful titanium retainers for some not so beautiful OEM shim under bucket retainers.

Also, it looks like my COP setup is finally coming together. Here are some mockup pics. The first three photos show the Beru coil they designed for the Porsche Cayenne and Cayman, which is supposedly good for 70mj.

Next are the Tundra coils.

Last one, from left to right, shows the Tundra coil, the VW/Audi 1.8TT coil, and finally the Porsche coil.

I'll have plug extenders set up for each one of these coils, and hope to do at least one good dyno pull with each one.

My favorite on looks alone is the VW/Audi 1.8TT coil, and my buddy Javad @ 034EFI.com has already tested them to over 120 RWHP each, so they should be more than man enough for my motor. On paper, however, these coils only produce about 3/4 of the output of the Porsche pencil coils.

 

[spf_lexus]

excellent job cribbj!! I thought COP wasnt feasible but now i'm a believer. So you used modified tundra coils on 1uz? I would be very interested in such a swap, what are the steps to upgrade to your setup? Are you noticing gains over stock setup? Was just looking at a Ls7 motor the other day dreaming about those sick cop's on my 1uz.

 

[cribbj]

COP's are "very" feasible and IMHO have several benefits:

1) Getting rid of the electromechanical distributors
2) Getting rid of the lossy secondary side of the ignition, and its failure prone leads
3) More accurate ignition due to the crank trigger
4) Hotter spark and higher RPM capability due to having a coil per cylinder, instead of a coil per 4 cylinders

I've run a couple different configurations on an engine dyno. The first one used MKIV Supra coils with a standalone Ford EDIS8 ignition system, and the 2nd configuration was using these Tundra coils with my AEM standalone ECU.

I currently like COP's with integral ignitors as they reduce the component count in the engine bay, and clean up the wiring by eliminating the external ignitors. The downside to these coils is that you can't use them with CDI ignitions (not a biggie for me as I'm a fan of inductive ignitions anyway)

Next dyno run(s) I hope to try out the Porsche and BMW coils, and if I can ever get connectors for them, the Honda S2000 coils.

Here are a couple of good threads on COP's for our engines:

http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2754

http://www.lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9736

 

[XR8tt]

i may beable to help you out with some shims,i have 2 motors, 1 is being stripped for a full rebuild from ground up, second motor is a spare for stripping.
i am seeing my engine builder tomorrow, will see what he has and i will pass on too XR8 if im able to help?

Do you want to sell your old motor?? I need one use as dummy to fabricate crossmember / firewall etc...
P.M me...

 

[cribbj]

Man, I'm getting frustrated with trying to find connectors for these COP's; if there's a downside to using these things that's it.

I've now got a set of these sh*t hot 70mj Porsche Cayenne coils, and I'm desperate to try them in my motor, but I can't seem to source the connectors for them. Beru, the coil manufacturer, don't sell the connector, and don't even KNOW what connector works. Naturally Porsche don't sell just the connectors, only the whole engine wiring harness, which is a cool $1100. That's a bit steep just to get 8 coil connectors.

I'll have to run a cross check of these coils against VW and Audi and see if any of their models use them, or one that has a similar connector. If anyone here drives a VW or Audi, and has COP's, here's an illustration of the connector on these Porsche coils (those are male pins in the coil):

 

[Muzza_NZ]

Bugger.

John, you may consider it too bodgy for your application, but if you can get a hold of the correct spade terminals for the plug, you could get some plugs milled up that will press into the COP housings.

I've done that before out of a block of ptfe, and sized and radiused it to press fit (tightly) in the large COP socket (with recesses for the locating tabs). The two problems that I had to overcome were, 1. ensuring the individual pins didn't fall out the back of the plug, which I did by milling concentric holes (with smaller diameter at the back) and crimping the spades to the wires through the front of the plug; and 2. retaining and sealing the plug without the main plug catch, which I did by sizing the custom plug correctly and injecting a small amount of urethane into the back of each spade parallel to the wire.

It actually didn't take very long to do, and was my only option at the time. The connectors have worked perfectly for a few years now too.

Perhaps not ideal in your situation, but you may consider it as a last resort.

Nick

 

[spf_lexus]

Cribbj

Hey if I had a set of tundra COP's whats involvewd w/ install? I am a newb w/ ignition but would like the benni's of COP's. Is it 2 wires per COP? and if so where are these wired to? I read that CDI's wont work, like MSD, Crane,Jacob. ETC? and what do I need to buy to connect everything to?

 

[cribbj]

Nick that's a great idea, and I may try it. I had thought about running individual spade connectors to the pins only for testing, then trying to come up with a long term solution, but your idea sounds like it would work well. I'll try it if my cross searches in the VW/Audi camp don't bear fruit.

SPF, to do COP's, first you'll need to get rid of your OEM ECU and go full standalone with one that has at least 4 ignition outputs; had you already planned to do that? It's not a decision to be taken lightly.....

 

[spf_lexus]

yeah can see the tuning fun already... the EMS will have to wait (moving to colorado) picking up a 2rz tyota truck as my daily and then I might do full swap. Thanks for info cribbj

 

[cribbj]

Well, I had some good luck today with the Porsche coils; I found that if I Dremel'd out the four plastic blocking rails (highlighted in red), I can use a box stock VW/Audi coil connector with these coils.

Presumably these blocking rails are there to keep VW/Audi owners from plugging in these Porsche coils and smoking their ECU's since the pinouts are different. They didn't stop a half loony, over the hill engineer though......

Luckily there is still a locking tab on top of the coil that mates with a hasp on the coil connector so once connected, they won't come loose.

 

[cribbj]

Flush from the success of the dremeling operation on the Porsche coils, I decided to shift attention over to the pesky valve shimming issue that is still lurking and keeping the motor from being completed.

To recap, we're trying to retrofit a set of reground cams in a motor that was setup for standard cams. As these regrinds have a reduced base circle, more shimming is needed. Custom shims probably could have been ordered for the standard shim-over-bucket setup, however as RMS and others will attest, the 1UZ has a nasty habit of spitting shims with modified cams.

Not wishing to wreck my motor (again) I decided to change over to a shimless, or shim under bucket setup. Unfortunately, as my cam to valve stem clearances varied from 8.28 to 8.74mm, and with the maximum thickness of shimless buckets only being 5.74mm, it looked like I was going to have to run both shimless buckets and add lash caps to the valve stems to get the clearances down to spec.

Well, after being quoted around $20 apiece for custom ground lash caps, I started looking at adding shims under my shimless buckets. This seemed workable, since the Toyota shimless bucket and shim under bucket are virtually identical. Only problem now is changing the retainers to those that are machined with a shim recess on top. No problem......ordered up a Lexus 3UZ retainer (which BTW is the same P/N as for the late 1UZ VVTi), and a set of collets, and while I was at it, I rang up Manley, and ordered one of their titanium retainers for a Nissan RB26 and a set of collets for it.

Both retainers and collets arrived yesterday and I started test fitting them this morning and comparing them with the stock 1UZ retainer. Here’s the stock early 1UZ, 3UZ, and Manley RB26 retainers, from left to right. Note how the 3UZ and Manley retainers have a niche in their top for the shim:



First thing I noticed about the 3UZ retainer is that it was smaller in diameter than the early 1UZ retainer, but it did have a good fit into the stock springs.



The Manley retainer was larger in diameter than stock, but its ID did not fit the ID of the springs at all. Hmmmm



Next, I fit the new 3UZ and Manley collets onto two stock valves, and tried to fit the retainers on. The Manley collets and retainer fit like a glove:




But the 3UZ collets and retainer just weren't working at all. In fact, it seemed like the collets didn't even want to fit on the valve stem........




HMMMMM. Then the bulb went on, dimly...... I remembered that Toyota had changed valve stem diameters somewhere in the evolution of the 1UZ motor. Fired up the TIS system and discovered that the change from 6.0mm valve stem diameter occurred with the change to shim under bucket, and with the advent of the VVTi system for the 1UZ. The 2UZ motor apparently always had a shim under bucket setup, and always had 5.5mm valve stems........


So my cunning little plan to use 3UZ retainers and collets is screwed because these collets and retainers are setup for 5.5mm valve stems, and my motor has 6.0mm stems.

But wait, all is not lost; this is simply another opportunity in disguise. Now I can upgrade to Manley springs and run the full RB26 valve train setup with titanium retainers. But will the Manley’s fit into the 31mm lifter bores? Yes! At 27mm these should work fine.



Hehe, amazing how a plan comes together. And to think that only $1200 ago, I was just trying to shim a set of cams.......


Another interesting thing I noted as I was mixing & matching. The Manley collets sit "lower" on the valve stem than the OEM collets. Reworded, this means more stem above the collets, which bodes well for anyone (Erol?) using lash caps. In fact, when I measured, the OEM setup has only 1.98mm of stem above the collets, while with the Manley's it's 2.70mm. Plus the Manley's sit a bit deeper in the OEM retainer than the OEM collets do, so neither the position of the OEM retainer, nor the precompression on the valve spring changes.

Here's a pic showing the OEM collet on top, and the Manley on bottom. Clearly you can see there's more stem above the Manley than the OEM.



And fitted on a valve, OEM on "top" and Manley below:



Amount of stem above the OEM collets:



Amount of stem above the Manley collets:

 

[JustenGT8]

Nice sleuthing John....have you got figures for the Manley spring OD and will it fit in the UZ bucket?

 

[cribbj]

Yeah no worries on the spring OD Justen, the RB26 uses 31mm buckets like we do.

What I'm concerned about is the length and strength of the springs, as Manley says they have a free height of 1.845", and a seat pressure of 80# @ 1.535 with a rate of 294 lbs/in.

So with the UZ installed height of 1.295" we're looking at a seat pressure of around 162# and we only have around 0.345" or 8.7mm of lift before coil bind. So this isn't a very good spring for us.......

What we need is a spring with an OD of around 1.10", an ID of 0.775" and a free height of around 1.60", bind of 0.850" or less, and a spring rate of around 160 to 175lbs/in. That would give us a seat pressure around 50-55 lbs, and around 11mm of lift before binding, and it wouldn't work the cams so hard that they shear their shear pins.

Guess it's time to hit the spring catalogs......

Aren't you running shim under bucket? Which retainers are you running?

 

[cribbj]

After spending most of the weekend in the Manley, Supertech, Ferrea, Crower, Crane, Comp Cams, Crow, and Performance Springs catalogs and specifications, I developed a short list of 6-7 spring sets that should work with these RB26 retainers and our engines.

Then this morning, I called the two US companies that made the short list to confirm their spring specs and order samples. Both Oz companies made the short list too, and hopefully a mate there will handle getting those for me.

Interestingly, both Manley and Supertech confirmed that the RB26 retainer is the only commonly available retainer which:

1) Will work well with 31mm lifters, and
2) 6.00mm valve stems, and
3) Has a shim recess for shim under bucket setups, and
4) Standard size shims are readily available

Supertech said they do make a retainer for the JDM Subaru WRX motor, that would work OK, but the shims are an oddball size of 11.70mm, and are only available from Japan......

I should have samples of Manley's and Supertech's springs by Thursday, and hopefully those from Oz the week after, so we'll be doing some detailed spring, shim, and retainer testing soon.

Stay tuned........

 

[cribbj]

I've now received samples of Manley, Supertech, Performance and Crow springs. The Performance & Crow samples were courtesy of Zuffen who purchased these along with samples of shims from Precision Shims and sent them all to me via FedEx so I'd have them before I left for another month in the big sandbox.

Dennis has also advised me that he's successfully bored out the 5.5mm Toyota shim-under-bucket retainer to accept 6mm valve stems and keepers. This was great news, as it means these can now be used in the pre-VVTi motors with 6mm valve stems if someone wants a relatively cheap shim under bucket solution.

So the program I'm going to follow to finish my old motor is to use Lextreme valve springs, and these bored out OEM retainers, with OEM 11mm OD shims, plus the thickest (5.74mm) shimless buckets. This should sort out the shimming problem with the welded and reground cams.

For the 2nd motor (David's old "LPG" motor), which also has welded and reground cams, I'm going to get a little crazier with the valvetrain. I found (as did Paul Carey) that the Nissan RB26 retainers fit fine into the lifter bores, and into the shimless buckets themselves, however the RB26 springs, and others of a similar OD are too large (OD-wise) for the OEM spring seats.

So we're just going to cut some new spring seats in these heads! We don't think it's going to be that hard to do, but finding the correct size tooling was a real bi*ch. Here in the USA everybody who sells domestic valvetrain machine tools only has 1.250" spring seat cutters as their smallest size, but we needed a 1.125" or 28mm cutter. Finally found some from a friend of a friend of a guy who works for Goodson (a big machine shop tool supplier up in Minnesota). He uses these tools to cut valve seats in vintage aircraft engines, but they should work fine for this application too.

So tomorrow, my other machine shop is going to use this new tooling to enlarge the spring seats in a "junk" head that I use for mockup work, then I'm going to test fit some of these new springs I just received in and see how they look & work.

They're going to cut 1 1/16" (1.0625" or 27mm) OD seats for one cylinder, and 1 1/8" (1.125" or 28.5mm) OD seats for another, and in the third, I've told them to cut whatever size they want, but to go as deep as possible to see how much metal we have before we hit the water jacket. This should be useful information for those who need to cut a deeper spring seat in order to run a high lift cam and avoid coil bind.

 

[Mattmannz]

Nice work Cribbj. Wll be an amazing motor when it's finished.

Matt.

 

[scotturnot]

Any updates John? I just completed reading this whole build again.

 

[cribbj]

Shoot Scott, you deserve an award for reading all this. I don't have the patience for that, and it's my thread ;-)

Anyway, no updates at the moment, but we'll be going back on the dyno the third week of September. Mitch will be flying in again for it, and as far as I'm concerned, it's "do or die" time for this motor.