Project Thread The 2JZ-GZTE Project

[cribbj]

I’ve been a bit bored the last 8-10 months, waiting for my 1UZ motor and V12 motor to make some progress, and an idle mind is the devil’s playground. So during this time, I’ve been fooling with another idea. A 2JZ-GZTE.

For those familiar with Toyota engine nomenclature, the “Z” means supercharger!

Yep, I decided to supercharge the 2JZ-GTE motor. It’s something that AFAIK has never been done, and it’s just been begging for someone to do. People have hung centrifugal ‘chargers on their 2JZ-GE’s but that’s a waste of time & money. IMO, they should have just turbo’d it.

OK, so why don’t you just call it the 2JZ-GZE? Why GZTE?

Because it’ll have both a turbocharger and the supercharger(s) :wink:

Holy *!@#%^ :yikes:

Now, why hasn’t the 2JZ ever been supercharged? Well, it’s an inline six cylinder motor, which is a mother bear to try to fit a Roots style supercharger on.

Plus, the front of this motor is very busy, so there’s not much space for a centrifugal. Besides, a centrifugal has a very turbo’ish power curve, and the 2JZ really doesn’t need a slow starting power curve. What this motor needs, as we all know, is low end torque, which is something only Roots or screw type superchargers (or nitrous) can provide.

So, due to packaging problems with putting the usual Eaton, Whipple, etc. on this motor, no one has supercharged it…… until now.

Here’s the concept in a nutshell:

1) Fabricate a new common plenum intake manifold which allows the supercharger(s) to bolt to it and then the head, and still allows room for the injectors and rail.

2) Bolt up (3) 500cc mini superchargers to this manifold

3) Mount 3 ITB’s to the superchargers for dyno testing; otherwise construct a common intake with a single TB for mounting in the car.

4) Construct a jackshaft driveshaft for the 3 mini superchargers.

Voila, we have the equivalent of a 1.5 liter supercharger, for a 3 liter engine, which should produce around 1.0 bar of boost when overdriven at a 2:1 ratio, and it’s still “fairly” low profile and should fit on the intake side of the motor. It should also produce oodles of low end torque, and once the turbocharger is hooked up, and is putting another 1.0 bar of boost at the intake of the superchargers, the motor should start making stupid amounts of power, pretty quickly.

So here’s some pics of the progress so far:

Here you can see the mechanical fabrication of the intake manifold is nearly finished (still has open ends) and the superchargers are bolted up to it and the manifold is bolted to a 2JZ-GTE head. Note the injector bungs on top. Those were a b*tch to get in and get right.







The throttle bodies are from a Suzuki 750 GSXR. Air horns are from a set I picked up awhile back off eBay.



The business end of things. These ought to sound pretty sweet up around 6500.



Still to come, tying the TB’s together, working out the throttle linkage, and fabricating the Gilmer drives.

I’ll also need to fabricate some stout knee bracing for these things, as they’re hung pretty far off the edge of the head.

Now, will it all fit in a Supra? Nope, no way, not with the ITB’s, but the next step after the ITB’s will be a common intake plenum, with a single forward facing TB, as per the OEM 2JZ-GTE setup, and that should fit!
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

There will of course be some other fitment "issues" to work around, but those will be sorted as we come to them. (Take heed of this, all ye copycats who would take the idea and try to turn a fast buck on it before it's sorted!)

So watch this space; it ought to be a fun project :burnout:

 

[Zuffen]

Do you like being whipped by women in black?

I would have thought two V8's and a V12 in build were enough to keep any man busy for a year or three.

Sounds cool and I can see some sleepless nights trying to debug some of your ideas. I know about sleepless nights and debugging!

The Gilmer drives could be a nightmare setting up idlers ect.

Will the GSXR t/b's be big enough?

Why three chargers and not one with a plenum a little like the 2J runs normally?

I would have thought the effort of the jack shaft and three blower drives (3, or 4 if you count the front drive, Gilmers will make a racket) would be harder than gettting a single to flow evenly.

Sounds like a lot of fun to do.

 

[cribbj]

Busted! How'd you know my secret fetish, Rod?

I think this finally made it to 100 views before you posted your reply, so either we've got some hardcore V8 fans here, or people just thought this was too crazy for words.

I think I've got the tensioning scheme for the short belts worked out in my head; remains to be seen if they work in reality. Haven't given much thought to the tensioner/idler setup for the front of the motor, but will probably borrow a few good ideas floating around on Lextreme, such as Hypronet's setup.

We'll see about the GSXR TB's - but they should be OK for an initial run in. The three of them with 42mm butterflies, are roughly equivalent to a single 72mm TB, so they should be OK for the SC's alone. At least they'll be enough to enable me to run the motor and test the concept.

Couldn't get my head around how to mount a single SC and doing a plenum to make it work; plus these little Aisins are just soooo cool. I've been wanting to do a project with them for some time, but didn't have a motorcycle or kart to do it with, so I just had to pick up a couple more, and find something to fit them on. The Supra motor was the most likely victim, as everything else I've got already has a plan in motion.

Lots of potential downsides to this, but what the H; it's going to be fun to see if it works.

 

[spf_lexus]

I say give it hell Cribbj! Nice to know that 2jz has enormous aftermarket support for your project. With 3 pullies being added do you plan to use aluminum underdrive accessory pullies? Add some titanium springs and retainers and some light rods/pistons and I see a very low parasitic loss. Interesting idea man:headbang:

 

[cribbj]

Cheers Shawn; the 2JZ that I currently have in my blue Supra already has all the goodies you mentioned, save the underdrive pullies, but I'll probably just keep the stock dampner for now. The long Supra crank needs a good dampner to keep it out of trouble.

I'm looking for some hardware and Suzuki parts to come in this week, so I can finish tying the TB's together, and get the extender bars measured and cut for the throttle linkages. Once that's done, I can then mount the head on a junk block, and the work can begin on the drive system, which I think (hope) will not be quite as big a challenge as the manifold was. The manifold looks quite simple, but you should see the heap of scrap ally that it took to get to this point......

I'll also need to fit a methanol/water injection system in the manifold to keep the charge air cool; that or try to stuff 3-4 of Striker's Laminova fintubes inside the manifold ;-) Thankfully there's tons of space on the bottom of the manifold, so I can hopefully mount the methanol nozzles there.

 

[mshawari1]

Very nice idea!!
42mm each throttle will be enough.
But I think single M90 could be easier for you.
Can't wait to see the results.​

 

[Arnout]

http://www.supras.nl/phpBB2/attachments/img00333-20090725-1511_108.jpg

 

[Zuffen]

If you're thinking of Laminovas check this thread on outerlimits4x4.com

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/ftopic164122.php

Some lovely fab work there.

Parasitic losses should be fairly high when you run 3 or 4 gilmer drives.

 

[JustenGT8]

John, you clearly have too much time (and money) on yours hands. You'd be far better off coming to visit me for a month and expend all that effort on my new UZ

That is a crazy setup and i love the elegant engineering approach, no surprises coming from you.

As Arnout has posted, i think there are easier ways to do it but as an exercise to pass the time it sure looks sweet.

Having had some experience with SC and T your boost estimations are a little off i'm afraid. 15psi from the blower and turbo will result in something more like 40psi!!!!!

The staged compression is a multiplication of the pressure ratios, not a simple addition of boost from each ;-) Do the math my engineering friend, you'll work it out

For my setup with 6psi blower and 12psi turbos, engine boost was 25psi!! pretty well as calculated. Turbo pressure is a toughy to calc accurately as set gate pressure doesn't equal manifold pressure always.

That final boost figure was one reason why i stopped developing the twincharge setup....even a built UZ will struggle making 25psi all day That and setting up as a track car meant weight becoming a big consideration.

watching with interest

 

[spf_lexus]

wow, I always thought twin-charging was an ineffient way to boost... I suppose not. What would 6psi twins and 6psi m90 result in?

 

[JustenGT8]

wow, I always thought twin-charging was an ineffient way to boost... I suppose not. What would 6psi twins and 6psi m90 result in?

Should give you around 14psi but i'd question why bother? Alot of effort for minimal gains?

 

[stevechumo]

This is too hard core. The TBs look like the bazookas that are ready to shoot. As Justen has mentioned, you got so much time on hand. LOL.

 

[cribbj]

Thanks Justen, and no miscalculations here, mate. I've got a gas compressor background and am well aware the compound pressure ratio is a function of multiplying, not adding, both stages, but thanks for confirming your ratios did indeed compound as expected ;-)

Although this motor will be built to handle very high boost, what I'm really interested in, is trying to modulate & control the interstage and final pressure ratios with both a SC & a turbo recycle valve so we don't get into the crazy regions. It's a bit dodgy with a turbocompressor at the front end, because we also have to keep it away from its surge line, but I'm hoping with judicious sizing of the turbine and compressor sections, that won't bite us.

Some of the real serious racers are boosting their 2JZ's up in the 3 bar region now, so I know the motor will live up there, however that's not my goal. The goal is balls of torque on the bottom, as well as keeping a "2JZ respectable" top end. That's why I want to run it with the ITB's initially, just to see what sort of power curve we'll get with single stage compression.

I'm working with a buddy who's a compressor controls engineer, and we're going to take his design for a multistage gas compressor controller and apply it to this as an embedded boost controller. That way, by adjusting the interstage and final pressure ratios, we can tailor the output according to the preference of the day, either tire shredding torque, or unbelievable topend, or some combination of the two ;-)

Of course it goes without saying that the fuel octane needs to be there, along with getting everything else right before trying to pull 600-700 lb-ft of torque or 500 psi BMEP out of this or any motor.

This is too hard core. The TBs look like the bazookas that are ready to shoot. As Justen has mentioned, you got so much time on hand. LOL.

They do look kinda like bazookas or RPG's don't they? Hope that's not a fatal prediction; I sure don't want engine parts to come shooting out of them ;-)

Arnout, thanks for posting up that pic; I'd heard you did a twincharged motor but didn't realise it was a 2JZ. Well done! What sort of performance did you get out of it?

 

[JustenGT8]

I should have known you were on the ball John ;-)

A simple method would just be to reference boost control for the turbo wastegate from the inlet manifold thru a controller you could map a desired boost target against whatever parameter you wanted.

With my twincharge setup i had pretty much full compound boost by 2500rpm so that gives you a big window of rpm to play with

Personally, i wouldn't get that fancy. The motor can take it as you say, the rest is controlled by the right foot I ran the twincharge at a khanacross and it performed flawlessly, same with top end blatts thru a nice twisty road. It was so balanced and predictable on the throttle it really was like driving some 8 litre n/a monster.

 

[cribbj]

Jeez Justen, why do something practical and simple when it's so much more fun to make it complicated? ;-) No, seriously, all suggestions and ideas are appreciated.

I'd like to know why you dismantled your twincharger setup? I've only heard you praise it on all counts other than weight and its high boost (which I'm sure you could've figured out how to control). So why did you take it down?

I'd also like to know all the gory details of your turbos and your SC, ie what compressor, which turbine, what trim, A/R ratio, etc. and the same for your SC - which ratios you were running. Knowing all this, along with the boost you were making, will help me get in the ballpark for the turbo configuration I'll need.

Frankly, I was probably going to give my existing T61 a try, but with a much bigger turbine housing - I have a 0.79 on it now, and it's fine for the street - very little lag with a cast manifold (very short runners), so I was thinking of going to at least a 1.04, or bigger, if I can find one.

 

[JustenGT8]

You engineers and your 'fun' ;-)

I think my reasoning was logical so hopefully this makes sense.

Basically the exercise was a proof of concept one as the gear to do it came up at the right price and i had some time to have a crack at it. Obviously it has potential but the system was far from optimal.

turbo only on 17psi i saw 400rwkw. Twincharge on 25psi i saw 377rwkw. I suspect it was a combo of factors, intake charge temp, the small M90 and too small a turbo/s.

To optimise the setup i would need an M112 and at a minimum, larger turbine housings. This setup would have the potential for up to 900hp (flywheel) and awesome bottom end...on a built motor. Somebody offered good dollars for the M90 setup so it was sold.

Here's where i had a change of heart. Did i want a mega hp beast or did i want i track car? Track car won as basically the setup was there and just needed refining. Twincharge is not only not needed but would be a liablilty i think....probably too much hp and certainly too much weight.

Things for you to consider. With the SC on, the turbos see a virtual engine of much larger capacity (roughly capacity x boost as a % of 1bar). You need to size your turbo accordingly and even err on the large side. Certainly it shifts the compressor needs to the right for a given pressure ratio which can improve or decrease compressor eff depending on the comp wheel you have.

I'd go even bigger than 1.04 for turbine a/r.

My twins are KKK hybrids. K26 turbine with K27 compressor. Blitz do them as a kit for 3SGTEs and they are rated at 450hp...equiv to a decent GT30. KKK don't use a/r they have that stupid scroll x-sectional area but i'd say the turbine was a 0.67 and comp cover a 0.6. Both are too small for twincharge.

My SC was a tricked up M90 running a pulley for 5-6psi.

I would like to try it again with a better optimised setup. Just need to find a car worth putting it in? Can't drag race it, can't track it and a bit of overkill as a daily

 

[spf_lexus]

Those M90's really push the intake temps up as their overspun. I saw a chrysler with an air/water IC that was MASSIVE. I guess the guy was pushing 15psi through the poor little blower and had 415 degree inlet temps!

I know your going to have massive lower end using the blower, i agree that larger A/R would benefit since the blower helps so much both from a high rpm perspective but also by lessening the impact of lag. since that "ideal" M112/whipple falls off past 5k, why not get 2 large laggy turbo's that start to spool at around 4k? Is this the overall idea?

I would guess the output from the twins vs twin charged would be 50% based on temps, at the end of the day the 17psi or whatever your looking for has to go through the blower, heating it up regardless what psi it'self is putting out. Very interesting food for thought I see water/meth making big improvements.


Whenever I get bored I can kill hours letting my brain WOT on your guys ideas haha

 

[JustenGT8]

That was the curious part as at 6 psi the blower was only geared for 8500rpm and they are good for more like 11000rpm. My intake temp sensor only read as high as 40 deg C which makes no sense so i have discounted that as an anomaly.

25psi on the turbos only would have given something approaching 550rwkw which is bang on what these turbos should produce

 

[cribbj]

turbo only on 17psi i saw 400rwkw. Twincharge on 25psi i saw 377rwkw. I suspect it was a combo of factors, intake charge temp, the small M90 and too small a turbo/s.

Things for you to consider. With the SC on, the turbos see a virtual engine of much larger capacity (roughly capacity x boost as a % of 1bar). You need to size your turbo accordingly and even err on the large side. Certainly it shifts the compressor needs to the right for a given pressure ratio which can improve or decrease compressor eff depending on the comp wheel you have.

I'd go even bigger than 1.04 for turbine a/r.

Cheers Justen, my memory is playing tricks on me again - I didn't remember that you'd lost power with the twincharge setup. And that, in spite of quite a bit more boost pressure? What was going on there?

Did you have any interstage cooling or were you just injecting M/W at the manifold?

 

[spf_lexus]

I suppose if a dry sump was used there would be room for a "sandwiched" intercooler, and use some water/meth on top could be a nice combo...