Eight extra injectors..
- Thread starter chrisman
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The 1UZFE EGR Delete Kit is available for sale here.
The stock injectors are placed where they will properly atomize and moving them at random can and usually WILL create problems. (Some rich and some too lean.) If you know what you are doing, obviously, this shouldn't be much of a concern. Ideally the injectors should be facing the valves, I'd never change that part of it. You can have one on top and one on bottom, which still doing this, and not hurt flow.
I've ran 720cc injectors on my 2L engine and it had no problems with idle at all! These are just regular pintle-style injectors too, I have heard of a few serious honda guys using 1000cc+ in street cars with no real problems. EVEN if you were not getting the propper mist, turn up the fuel pressure and adjust accordingly. Of course on a stock ECU this isn't as easy, but why use stock maps for performance anyways? If I could go back in time and change my first mod, it would have been to go stand-alone immediatly when I wanted performance.
About fouling plugs, what kind are you using? I suggest investing in some DOUBLE platinums as they will never foul and if they somehow do, have a 100,000 mile warranty.
the one that im having made will not really control timing,,but it will retard the timing when you hit boost.. it will retard .5-3 degrees for every psi.. the timing aspect of the controller is more complicated than the fuel part.. my buddy says that there is over 600 lines of code --just for retarding the timing.. im trying to keep things simple to use, so my setup will more likely be basic.. but it will be programable--i have just not decided how to alow it to be programmed.my buddy insist on having a small digi display--and somehow programing thru that.. well see..
i think max wants to volunteer driving your supra around for the summer, just to make sure its tuned well...ha,,.just kiddin..
yes, all around tunning can be tough--and expensive.. believe me when i say that toyota/lexus probably had 20+ engineers working on the tunning aspect of the original ecu--but they do make compromises.. thats where you can pick up horsepower in tunning.. but if your car does need to get bigger injectors because of big mods, things can get complicated.. another thing we always need to keep in mind here is the EPA.. we need to get cars tested once in a while in IL.. although there is no real visual inspections around here, we still need to pass emissions.. another plus of the aux injectors and controller is that you easily can turn them off..
i do have more news on the sysytem i have installed..i did get it working this weekend, and the rough tune is done..i left it running a bit rich, but i am very busy at the shop, and wont be getting to it again till next weekend..one of the things i dont like about the aux controller i installed on rdms car is that there is no visual display or anything unless your driving arounnd with the laptop.. i am almost positive now that i will have some sort of display in the unit that i am getting developed.. i think its important to be able to take a quick look and make sure i know whats happening and when.. i should have gotten some pics after the install, but i didnt have the digicam at the shop.. but il try and get one up in a day or 2..
yes, all around tunning can be tough--and expensive.. believe me when i say that toyota/lexus probably had 20+ engineers working on the tunning aspect of the original ecu--but they do make compromises.. thats where you can pick up horsepower in tunning.. but if your car does need to get bigger injectors because of big mods, things can get complicated.. another thing we always need to keep in mind here is the EPA.. we need to get cars tested once in a while in IL.. although there is no real visual inspections around here, we still need to pass emissions.. another plus of the aux injectors and controller is that you easily can turn them off..
i do have more news on the sysytem i have installed..i did get it working this weekend, and the rough tune is done..i left it running a bit rich, but i am very busy at the shop, and wont be getting to it again till next weekend..one of the things i dont like about the aux controller i installed on rdms car is that there is no visual display or anything unless your driving arounnd with the laptop.. i am almost positive now that i will have some sort of display in the unit that i am getting developed.. i think its important to be able to take a quick look and make sure i know whats happening and when.. i should have gotten some pics after the install, but i didnt have the digicam at the shop.. but il try and get one up in a day or 2..
Chris
Big big respect with your project. that secondary fuel rails look awesome. I know that main reason that setup is drivebality stock main 8 injectors when no boost. It is hard to beat. When on boost secondary injectros come in. That was well made stock in LT5 corvett ZR1 engine. Are you sure that you could not use larger injectors in place stock ones and tune it good with additional piggy back system and still have good drivebality?
Jerry
Big big respect with your project. that secondary fuel rails look awesome. I know that main reason that setup is drivebality stock main 8 injectors when no boost. It is hard to beat. When on boost secondary injectros come in. That was well made stock in LT5 corvett ZR1 engine. Are you sure that you could not use larger injectors in place stock ones and tune it good with additional piggy back system and still have good drivebality?
Jerry
Attachments
hi jerry,you probably could use larger injectors in place of the stock--but the stock fuel rail, and how its plumbed limit the amount of fuel--in my opinion.. if you plan on running the stock fuel rail with large injectors you should run more fuel thru another line..
the stock fuel rails are run in series.. to flow more fuel they should be run in parrallel..i think the stock fuel sysytem is good for about 350 hp, after that you will need larger injectors and the fuel rail plumbing modification..
i have heard that chevrolet did use aux injectors on the corvette, but i never knew it was the zr1.. i will try google-ing and see if i can find a pic..
the stock fuel rails are run in series.. to flow more fuel they should be run in parrallel..i think the stock fuel sysytem is good for about 350 hp, after that you will need larger injectors and the fuel rail plumbing modification..
i have heard that chevrolet did use aux injectors on the corvette, but i never knew it was the zr1.. i will try google-ing and see if i can find a pic..
i went over to rdms today to take a pic or two.. heres the inector setup on his TT sc400.. i am still kinda surprised and glad it fits under the hood.. just looking at it you would think its a bit tall.. the wirring still needs to be finalized,, its just roughed out.. i also need to finalize some fuel lines.. but it is on and working.. i have asked rdm not to drive the car around because i still think i need to go thru the trans.. when he broke the diff and locked the driveshaft and broke the input shaft of the trans, i think he did some damage to at least one of the planetary gear sets in he trans.. i hear a noise i dont like coming from it.. i am a bit busy and wont be able to get to it for at least a week,, but il keep you guys informed especially if i can get it to a track soon..
Lextreme II
Active Member
Very nice...... i need a set....
Well congrats on the hood clearance thing, that's nice surprise I'm sure.
I didn't know any production car came with two sets of injectors, interesting, especially considering what you could do with some high test fuel in a separate tank.
That controller sounds pretty neat also, I also am convinced that there will much less pain and suffering by using the oem setup for idle and driveability,and maintaining all those other functions controlled within.
I didn't know any production car came with two sets of injectors, interesting, especially considering what you could do with some high test fuel in a separate tank.
That controller sounds pretty neat also, I also am convinced that there will much less pain and suffering by using the oem setup for idle and driveability,and maintaining all those other functions controlled within.
thanks scv8.. i am hoping to try alchohol as a fuel for the extra injectors in the future.. along with the higher octane, its good stuff when it comes to boost.. i think i have read that alchohol dragsters run upto 60 psi boost--no intercooler..and the intake is ice cold after a run..
you can use methanol,, and from what ive read and noticed -- the injctors will most likely be fine.. but remember that methanol has no oil in it.. it tends to dry parts and rubber..ive also heard that it will wash the oil from a cylinder wall.. its this "drying effect" that makes me think why its known for promoting oxidation..thats why i reccomend mixing in some oil.. ive heard of people mixing in some trans fluid.. ive also heard mixing in gasoline.. in either case, try not to use straight methanol.. and try and use stainless fuel lines and fuel rails--or at the least, use anodized alum prts.. and if the car will be sitting between races,, i would try and flush ou the fuel between race weekends.. leting the car just sit there would probably let the methanol bite into the parts...im not sure where your from, but here in the us, you can buy ethanol--upto an 85 % mix from certain gas stations..some new cars can handle the 85% ethanol as a fuel.. and after all, it does burn cleaner than gas..
Torquemonster
New Member
Hi - I'm new here - but I'm impressed with the work Chris... great job and I hope it works out as well as you hope.
re some comments made:
yes you can run 60psi on Methanol without intercooling. We did it and ran 6's at over 200mph in Pro Mod on a PSI blower.
re bigger injectors vs piggy back - there is no right and wrong. You can make big injectors streetable - but you need two key things to do it:
1 - LOW impedence injectors
2 - Aftermarket EMS that has full control over timing and fuel - like AEM, Motec etc.
of course beyond that you need expert tuning - but I've seen big injectors get great mileage and idle fine - how's over 1000rwhp and 20mpg (US gal - it'd be 23mpg using the British gallon) in a 500 cubic inch Viper V10 twin turbo?
having said that - piggy back systems can work great. While not as smooth on transition they are simpler to tune and offer a cost effective way to get the best of both worlds.... Personally - I like the Dr Jeckle Mr Hyde character switch as the extra injectors hit.
cheers
re some comments made:
yes you can run 60psi on Methanol without intercooling. We did it and ran 6's at over 200mph in Pro Mod on a PSI blower.
re bigger injectors vs piggy back - there is no right and wrong. You can make big injectors streetable - but you need two key things to do it:
1 - LOW impedence injectors
2 - Aftermarket EMS that has full control over timing and fuel - like AEM, Motec etc.
of course beyond that you need expert tuning - but I've seen big injectors get great mileage and idle fine - how's over 1000rwhp and 20mpg (US gal - it'd be 23mpg using the British gallon) in a 500 cubic inch Viper V10 twin turbo?
having said that - piggy back systems can work great. While not as smooth on transition they are simpler to tune and offer a cost effective way to get the best of both worlds.... Personally - I like the Dr Jeckle Mr Hyde character switch as the extra injectors hit.
cheers
Actually I think you are greatly overlooking some points. First of all, what kind of injectors are you talking about? This means everything. A lot of urban myths surround the auto community, and one is about big injectors.BlownV8 said:
The stock injectors are placed where they will properly atomize and moving them at random can and usually WILL create problems. (Some rich and some too lean.) If you know what you are doing, obviously, this shouldn't be much of a concern. Ideally the injectors should be facing the valves, I'd never change that part of it. You can have one on top and one on bottom, which still doing this, and not hurt flow.
I've ran 720cc injectors on my 2L engine and it had no problems with idle at all! These are just regular pintle-style injectors too, I have heard of a few serious honda guys using 1000cc+ in street cars with no real problems. EVEN if you were not getting the propper mist, turn up the fuel pressure and adjust accordingly. Of course on a stock ECU this isn't as easy, but why use stock maps for performance anyways? If I could go back in time and change my first mod, it would have been to go stand-alone immediatly when I wanted performance.
About fouling plugs, what kind are you using? I suggest investing in some DOUBLE platinums as they will never foul and if they somehow do, have a 100,000 mile warranty.
Lextreme II
Active Member
What do u you guys think about making a 4 (1600cc) under the intake? Split Second has an unit that will control 4 low or high impedance injectors. 4 1600cc plus 8 251cc would average out about 1050 cc per cylinder. 1050 cc willl support 1000 hp.
lextreme,, i think your controller could support 8 xtra injectors.. unlike the original/stock injectors which are working all of the time,, the extra injectors only work/come on for a little bit ata time--lets say about 15 seconds max.. this puts less stress on the controller/ecu..
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