Eight extra injectors..

[chrisman]

one thing i forgot to mention.. now that this is coming together, its looking like it may be to tall for the sc400.??. dont be surprised if you see this for sale on ebay..

just kidding.. if it wont fit on the sc400, il use it on the corolla.. but then i need to get another one made for the lex.. i hope not --im getting busy at my shop.. just not enough time in the day..

 

[Lextreme II]

Chris,

I really think its to tall for the SC or the LS. Have you thought about installing them in an angle like 90? I am not sure the fluid dynamic if you install them horizontally. However, that might be a way.

 

[chrisman]

lex, i have thought about installing them in many ways.. the way im doing them is the best compromise i could come up with so far.. i could have sunk the injector deep into the intake port, but that would have taken up/blocked alot of space in the intakes runner..
the way i have them virtually does not block the intake runner at all.. the inside is what i mean.. we will see.. i need to finish them up, try and fit it on the sc...
but compromise is what making parts is all about.. coming up with the best working solution..

 

[Lextreme II]

How about mounting the upsidedown. Mounting them under the lower intake.

 

[Zuffen]

On some application the injector is pointed aginst the flow. That is it sprays the fuel toward the t/b and the air iflow has to turn the fuel mist 180degrees to get it in the port.

I don't know why but there must be a reason.

 

[chrisman]

lextreme--underneith is something i will probably take a good look at before i make the next one.. i wanted to make an upper mani, so you can just bolt it on easily, and remove it easily.... i think if someone needs to remove the lower intake, it makes installing a little scary..--but it would make the 8 extra injectors, STEALTHY..
zuffen--im glad you mentioned spraying against the flow of air..im gonna try searching and see if i can find any interesting reasons/info..
somethin else i may consider for the next one is to make a completely new upper intake, with the 8 extra injectors plumbed in..that way i could move somethings around--i like doin that.. he..he..

 

[Lextreme II]

From my experience of replacing the starter. I notice under the lower has lots of room. Perhaps this method would help the hood issue.

 

[Zuffen]

I read the bit about the injectors in Corky Bells Supercharger book.

 

[edz]

very neat, the workmanship is spot on, a nice way to setup a second set of injectors and solves the overfueling down low. Should be more efficient giving better fuel economy and idling - a nice job!

 

[chrisman]

thanks, it should be on and working in a day or 2.. i was busy, but will be able to work on the car again.. getting all of the fittings, and lines cost a bunch--rdm was kinda surprised.. he has never bought "grade A FANCY" fittings before.. but they do look "purdy"..
i also installed an aux fuel pump-in the tank-255lph-.. it was not that bad an experience, but it did require removal of the tank..kinda easy job on these cars.. one of the toughest gas tank removals was on my mr2--never again-argh..
im also running a seperate line-i happen to have a long piece of stainless tube, and thats relatively simple..
anyway, il keep everyone posted on how it works.. i gotta feeling it will work fine.. the local track is open, and in the next couple of weeks i should have some numbers and vids..

 

[chrisman]

i have a fresh pic of the 8 extra inj setup,, i just placed it on the corolla engine for the pics, but tomorow it should be on rdms car.. anyway,, the fittings and lines cost more than the fuel inj and fuel rail.. but that stuff has always been expensive.. and yea, i know the fuel line is extra large, but i hate remaking stuff, and we may eventually run methanol thru the setup as a seperate aux fuel--something i always wanted to try..

i cant wait to feel it working..

 

[chrisman]

heres another view..

 

[Lextreme II]

Very nice... more pics please.... are those 8 an lines? I noticed one rail powered two injectors and other rail powered four.

 

[chrisman]

yes david, those are 8 an lines for the rails.. and i had to keep the fuel rails as low as i could to help clear the hood, so on the drivers side, i had to split the rail in 2..
actually the main fuel supply line is a 6 an, but like i had mentioned, i eventually want to try methanol, and that requires about twice the volume, so the fuel lines should be fine for that..
i have always felt that having 2 fuel pumps and 2 seperate fuel systems would be ideal in a high horsepower street turbo sysytem.. gas for driving around town, and when the tubo comes on, alchohol for alot of boost..
at first we will be using gas,, but give me a bit of time.. -- i got to get back to the labratory... i feel like an evil scientist.. ha,,..

 

[6spdSC4]

Guys this may be a really stupid question but you were all talking about low-end peformance and driveability and how that's why you went with a second set of injectors but I was curious about something: Why couldn't you just use a bigger set of injectors and, since you'd probably be running an aftermarket ems(right?) why couldn't you just have those injectors set to run at a lower duty-cycle then when the turbos come online you up the cycles as needed? Is that an option at all or does it not really work like that? Maybe just way too much tuning involved for the end product?

 

[chrisman]

good questions.. the original ecu is still being used.. in fact, the car should still pass emmisions-as long as i make sure the turbos dont come on during a test..
around town driveability is very important in this case--rdm drives the car everyday-over 100 miles.. so there is no real driveability tunning involved.. but when the turbos come on, the extra injectors come on.. this is done with an aux injector controller.. these are available from a variety of sources, in fact i am developing one in house.. i have a friend who ive been bugging to get involved and help develop one.. well these controllers are fairly simple--simple to install and relatively simple to tune.. the hard part of this type of setup is the actual 8 extra injectors--welding and fabbing..especially because being a v8..
anyway, if you really think about how you drive, its not very often you need alot of horsepower.. id guess and say about 10 % of the time your driving around.. and i think aux injectors are a good way to get alot of gas only when you really need it--while most of the rest of the time, reliability and driveability are more important..
ive had succces with the same type of set up on a toyota paseo i had turboed.. on the paseo with the toyota ecu and injectors and a toyota turbo, with 4 extra injectors, the car had run 118 mph at 13.0 on street 185s-tires.. if you ever tried racing a front wheel drive car, thats prety good..

 

[Lextreme II]

Chrisman,

How many psi would this extra fuel injectors support? How does the extra injectors being control? When does it come on? I am interested in your system.

 

[BlownV8]

Guys this may be a really stupid question but you were all talking about low-end peformance and driveability and how that's why you went with a second set of injectors but I was curious about something: Why couldn't you just use a bigger set of injectors and, since you'd probably be running an aftermarket ems(right?) why couldn't you just have those injectors set to run at a lower duty-cycle then when the turbos come online you up the cycles as needed? Is that an option at all or does it not really work like that? Maybe just way too much tuning involved for the end product?

6spdsc4, in theory you are right about the bigger injectors, but in practice it doesn't work that way. Because you would need such a large set of injectors to compensate for the 2 std sets, at low load, or at idle, the injectors would not be on for very long, and due to their size, you would not get a proper fuel mist out of them, it would be more like a dribble, and then the fuel will not atomise propery, creating very lumpy engine response down low. Once the revs come up it would not be to bad, but would be horrible for every day driving.

 

[chrisman]

lex, the aux injector controler is isimple,, it uses a map sensor to measure boost, and it also uses the tachometer.. tuning a car for day to day driving is tough--but tunning a car for max hp is easier.. that is, at WOT, the engines fuel needs are much easier to figure out.. and are ususally linear..go up or down in a linear fashion..
the map sensors are made by motorola, and are realtively cheap, and accurate.. they can measure upto 3 bar.. the previous unit i had used was by a company--SDS.. it only had 2 knobs to adjust--and worked well..that is the one i had used on the paseo..
the one rdm bought for the lexus, although it is universal, is made by a guy in cali.. his company is called 034efi.. now, i have not finished installing and using this controller--so i cant say if i like or not yet.. but in the next day or so i should a have an opinion..
the one that is being developed by my buddy is also a simple controller, but i am trying to incorperate some of the features that think are important..but i should have a working example in my hands in a month or so..i plan to use these on my turbo installs, and i may decide to sell them.. they are relatively cheap to make..
im not saying an aftermarket EMS cannot make great power, or have great driveability-- im saying that sometimes its difficult to have both.. i remember a friend who bought an mr2 that mde big HP on a dyno, and when he went to buy it, and drive it home a few states away, he struggled the whole way home.. it kept fouling the plugs out, and wouldnt start, and gassed up the oil---a bunch of stuff/probs like that..the car was not fun anymore..

 

[Lextreme II]

So this unit is a manual control of the fuel? What about timing? Do u know any extra injectors controller also does timing too? Split Second has one and i wonder how go it is. I think its a laptop program type and its both boost and rpm activation.