Eight extra injectors..

[chrisman]

hi guys, i have been working on getting eight extra injectors on rdms car.. heres a pic or 2.. its not done yet, but after a day of grinding and welding, i have to show somebody..you can see the rough fuel rail in there also..
the 8 extra injectors are gonna be controlled by a programable inj controller.. we got one from a guy in san fran that makes them.. ive been trying to get a friend make one for me--but it takes a bunch of time, and he isnt able to spend to much time on it..
i have had good success with additional injectors on turbo engines, so i kinda talked rdm into it.. i know we have maxed out the cars fuel system, so this should help greatly..
anyway, i should have it on the car this weekend--hopefully.. the local track is opening up soon, and id like to have the car do well..

 

[chrisman]

heres another view..-by the way, this is the corolla im working on.. it has the spare motor in it..i will switch the intakes when its ready..

 

[Lextreme II]

Keep us update with the progress. Those yellow injectors from the mkiii n/a? Looks like they are 295cc each.

 

[chrisman]

you have a sharp eye david.. yes, those are some injectors lying around my shop.. i will probably use mk3 injectors, but the turbo ones..i just am using the yellow,those for fitting/pics.. i have alot of parts sitting around my shop.. i guess you could say im resourcefull..i end up using almost everything, its kinda funny actually..

 

[Lextreme II]

The turbo version are 440 cc with low impendance. It might be easier if you stay with 295. That is alot of fuel. Combined will be about 550 cc each (251 x 8 plus 295 x 8 or 550 x 8) I would stay with the MKIII NA. Try the Lime Green Version. Its 315cc each. Since u 8 additional injectors you would need an additional fuel pump and fuel line.

 

[chrisman]

your right again david.. i am using an additional fuel line and pump..

one of the reasons i like using extra injectors on NA to TURBO conversions is because i want to keep the driveability exactly as it was before the conversion..UNTIL--the turbo comes on-- that is when i want to add the extra fuel..
i have done this before, and was very happy with the results.. i hope it works out well on rdms car.. well see--hopefully soon..

 

[88Alltrac]

Looks good, I give much respect for adding fuel EQUALLY instead of throwing a couple big peak-n-hold injectors before the manifold. You will see the results of doing such on a dyno (by the pants too) once everything is tuned. 1st gen 3s-gte (88-89 Celica GT-4/All-Trac) injectors are top-fed 440cc injectors, may be useful after those are maxed out. 8 of them would be enough fuel for 600hp at 80%-85% duty cycle (assuming 38-40psi at idle.)

 

[chrisman]

thanks 88 alltrac.. 550-600 hp is the ultimate/eventual goal for rdms car.. the 2 mr2 turbos-also altrac-are good for a max of 600 hp ..or so i figure anyway.. i know the exhaust/turbine side is restrictive, but i hope we will see 550-600 hp at about a max of 15 psi..
stay tuned..

 

[Lextreme II]

Chris,

I am currently running 16 psi and the engine sound and felt very smooth. I think i can go up to 18 or 20 psi. Go for it!

 

[88Alltrac]

thanks 88 alltrac.. 550-600 hp is the ultimate/eventual goal for rdms car.. the 2 mr2 turbos-also altrac-are good for a max of 600 hp ..or so i figure anyway.. i know the exhaust/turbine side is restrictive, but i hope we will see 550-600 hp at about a max of 15 psi..
stay tuned..

The CT-26 is good for 16psi at it's peak efficiency and should flow about 260hp each, so 520hp plus or minus. The MK3 Supra uses a slightly larger ct-26 good for nearly 300hp each. The extra size will of course cause more lag though. If you want one, I have a ct-26 from my alltrac wrapped up in my garage that I am trying to sell. I was running it at stock boost so shaft play is very minimal.

 

[chrisman]

88 altrac- i agree the turbos are good for about 260 hp each.. but i think there are other factors that should be considered also.. first is the fact that this is a large v8--compared to the 2.0 3sgte.. second is the higher initial compression ratio.. 10.3 versus the 3sgte compression ratio which i believe is around 8.5.
i think it has been seen over and over again that 1uz, along with other v8s, tend to make more power at lower psi..
for example, at 8 psi, rdms car was amking 370 rwhp.. that is about 430 at the crank.. that is a considerable jump verses the original 170 rwhp..
alot of the things i have learned about turbocharging cars, especialy 4 cylinders,, have to be reconsidered.. remember on a v8, a cylinder fires every 90 degrees versus the 180 degrees of thye 4 cyl..
all this stuff is just thoughts going around in my head, but i hope soon i will get some more hard numbers.. in any case, i think when you turbocharge a v8, you may be pleasently surprised..its much easier to make HP than on a 4 cyl..but then again,, these cars are heavy.. generally around 4000lbs..that kinda evens things out..
lextreme, sounds like your having fun over there in cali-- be carefull about getting tickets..you should try and get some dyno numbers if you have a chance..

 

[JBrady]

88 altrac- i agree the turbos are good for about 260 hp each.. but i think there are other factors that should be considered also.. first is the fact that this is a large v8--compared to the 2.0 3sgte.. second is the higher initial compression ratio.. 10.3 versus the 3sgte compression ratio which i believe is around 8.5.
i think it has been seen over and over again that 1uz, along with other v8s, tend to make more power at lower psi..
for example, at 8 psi, rdms car was amking 370 rwhp.. that is about 430 at the crank.. that is a considerable jump verses the original 170 rwhp..
alot of the things i have learned about turbocharging cars, especialy 4 cylinders,, have to be reconsidered.. remember on a v8, a cylinder fires every 90 degrees versus the 180 degrees of thye 4 cyl..
all this stuff is just thoughts going around in my head, but i hope soon i will get some more hard numbers.. in any case, i think when you turbocharge a v8, you may be pleasently surprised..its much easier to make HP than on a 4 cyl..but then again,, these cars are heavy.. generally around 4000lbs..that kinda evens things out..
lextreme, sounds like your having fun over there in cali-- be carefull about getting tickets..you should try and get some dyno numbers if you have a chance..

Chrisman, where are you finding compression? The factory lists 10.0 to 1 for 1990-1994 1UZFE. 10.4 for 95-97 and 10.5 for 98+.

 

[chrisman]

jbrady--i was just going from what i remembered someone had told me.. im sure it is 10.0 to 1 for an early 1uz..
88 alltrac-- i forgot to mention that i may be interested in that ct26,, pm me with more info..

 

[88Alltrac]

88 altrac- i agree the turbos are good for about 260 hp each.. but i think there are other factors that should be considered also.. first is the fact that this is a large v8--compared to the 2.0 3sgte.. second is the higher initial compression ratio.. 10.3 versus the 3sgte compression ratio which i believe is around 8.5.
i think it has been seen over and over again that 1uz, along with other v8s, tend to make more power at lower psi..
for example, at 8 psi, rdms car was amking 370 rwhp.. that is about 430 at the crank.. that is a considerable jump verses the original 170 rwhp..
alot of the things i have learned about turbocharging cars, especialy 4 cylinders,, have to be reconsidered.. remember on a v8, a cylinder fires every 90 degrees versus the 180 degrees of thye 4 cyl..
all this stuff is just thoughts going around in my head, but i hope soon i will get some more hard numbers.. in any case, i think when you turbocharge a v8, you may be pleasently surprised..its much easier to make HP than on a 4 cyl..but then again,, these cars are heavy.. generally around 4000lbs..that kinda evens things out..

Your points are obviously important and are to be taken into consideration by all. The 1st and 3rd generation 3s-gte is 8.5:1 while the 2nd is 8.8:1. There is a reason why cars with higher compression make more power on less boost, while doing it sooner too; The internal cylinder pressure. Getting our air/fuel mix as compressed as we can, without pre-igniting, is what does it. It gives more expanding gasses to spool the turbo quicker too, making something kind of like a perpetuating effect. Compression ratio plays a huge role into spooling the turbine. Too much compression and too much boost will raise the internal static compression causing the engine to act like a diesel, hence the reason diesels use 20:1 and up as a compression ratio, no spark plugs to be found. The firing is different on a V8 compared to an inline 4 but a 4-litre v8 would put out just about as much exhaust as two 2-Litre I4s every full rotation. Because we were tailking twin turbo, unless we wana go compound, it will be JUST like running each turbo on a 4-cyl. When we go single turbo, that's when we would best take advantage of using the V configuration and it's firing to our advantage. I was simply going by the airflow ratings on the turbo's compressor sizes as to what they would or usually do put out. Thankfully though, the car my 1uz is going in isn't quite as heavy but still close to 3600lbs. I was going to supercharge this engine, figuring I already have a quick turbo car, and even bought an Eaton MP-112 brand new. My turbo-lust took over and I am selling it. Plan to eventually resleave my block and fit some forged rods and pistons in it but for now I should be fine on low boost. I am definitly going with an Autronic ecu on this car as I love how it does on my 3s-gte 86 celica gts. Running on hardly any sleep, I hope this all makes sense!

-Steve

 

[chrisman]

yes it all makes sense.. i think youl end up being very happy with the FI 1uz..especially if its going in a lighter car, and you can do all the tunning yourself..
one kinda neet thing about all this, is that in the states, this is relatively new ground.. compared to other makes/engines, the 1uz is still relatively virgin.. i know in australia, they have been messing with them for years..but in the states we lag..
glad to see your gonna be getting something together.. we need more examples running around..

 

[Lextreme II]

Chris,

What type of fuel rail u will be using and what is your plan for the additional fuel line and pump? Secondly, i wonder what type of effect would be with stock injectors with decompressed motor. Would it idle ok?

 

[88Alltrac]

i wonder what type of effect would be with stock injectors with decompressed motor. Would it idle ok?

The stock ecu is not programmed to change parameters when compression is changed so I wouldn't bother with it untill you go aftermarket ems. Obvioiusly small changes in compression won't affect too much, such as head gaskets. But I'd like to see before and after dynos on stock ecu. Almost certainly, it will only hurt performance.

 

[chrisman]

the fuel rail is an aluminum extrusion.. it is sold by the foot.. i have to machine the rail for the injectors, and i need to mount/secure it to the upper manifold..the tricky part is working around the throttle cable and trans cable..
i have a 255 pmp sitting around and will use it for this project.. i will need to run it in the tank, and a seperate line for it.. thats about the easiest way for me to make sure there will be enough fuel for the extra 8 injectors..
running a new line is not that bad,,but i havnt decided if i will run a new return also, or use the existing return..

 

[chrisman]

hi guys, i was able to work on the extra injector setup today, so i have a few more pics.. i did decide how to mount the driver side rail.. you should be able to see in the pic.. also, i did block off the egr, and pcv.. now i need to finish up the other side.. you can see i split the rail in 2 on the pass side.. i still need to get lines/fittings..
i will keep this thread updated..

 

[chrisman]

another pic..