Changing starter Location?

[Philly#1 Lex]

Is it possible to change the location of the starter? I read on planetsoarer somewhere that if you removed it the engine goes limp? Why? And if its because of the ECU, I am planning on going full stand alone so this should not concern me? Thanks alot. This is for a supercharger project.

 

[Zuffen]

You can move the starter but to where?

Mine is located between the "ears" of the sump on a fabricated bracket.

See the photo.

This is the only place I can see it fitting other than the stock location.

 

[Peewee]

Umm, I think you are confused dude.

You remove the starter and you can't start the car.
Its kinda vital.

 

[Zuffen]

Peewee,

I think he meant if it wasn't connected will the computer will notice.

I agree it may be hard to start (unless an manual) but it won't effect the computer.

This means you can relocate or replace the starter without upsetting the ECU.

Years ago I had a diesel engine in my sailboat that used a dynastarter. This was a generator when the engine was running but also as a starter when needed. It was driven by a single fan belt and worked a treat.

I don't see why you couldn't do a simillar set up on an car engine. Just another thing to mount to the engine. You could run two charging systems. I for the starter (using the dynastarter) and one for the car using the Alternator.

I don't see the concept as bing silly as it allows room for intercooling.

 

[Philly#1 Lex]

I dont think PeeWee can read. I ask to change the location not totally remove it from the car!Thanks alot Zuffen. At least someone has an idea of what I am trying to do. And yes its to allow for cooling. Zuffen do you think I can gain a inch or two changing the starter location and lowering the manifold some? Thanks man

 

[Zuffen]

Philly,

You can gain a good 3 inches by moving the starter.

I'll do some measurements tonight and let you know what can be done.

If looking to move the starter the length of it dictates you must use a minimum of a mid sump engine (with some sump mods) so it may be a struggle under the SC.

You'll find Peewee one of the good guys on the Forum. His knowledge of Toyota engines etc is first class. I think he was just having a bit of fun with you.

 

[Philly#1 Lex]

Sorry PeeWee. Didnt know man, So use to Clublexus where I have to have my guard up. No hard feelings though right? hahaha. Any way Zuffen thanks man that is great info and I hope that your measurement confirm that its 3 inches. If so do you think the knock sensors would get in my way if I use my sandwich plate cooler in that area?

 

[Peewee]

Yeah, I was having a go.

Where did you read that the ecu would go into limp home mode if you removed the starter?
I've read most of planetsoarer and I've never come across that.

Hence why I thought you misread something somewhere. Got the starter confused with something else...

 

[Zuffen]

Philly,

Sorry you may have to wait a while for me to confirm the measurement.

I took delivery of a new boat yesterday and now I'm on crutches for a week or so. Don't ask how I did it but it must have looked good.

Hope to get back into the garage in a few days.

 

[Philly#1 Lex]

Sorry to hear that man. I will be waiting for a measurement. I thought you forgot about me at first. But get well fast and enjoy the new boat as well. Later

 

[Peewee]

Philly, draw a picture in paint or something about what you want measured.

I have a motor half apart at the moment, so I can measure anything you want.

 

[Philly#1 Lex]

We are trying to see how thick/tall the starter is. Because I want to bring the manifold down 1-3 inches to allow for sandwich plate style cooler. Also I know the knock sensors are there as well. So could you also give me measurements on how much do they come up in reference to the starter? Like say the starter is three inches tall and the knock sensors come up maybe 1/2 inch that means I will have 2-2.5 inches to gain if I relocate the starter? Thanks peewee.

 

[Zuffen]

Philly,

I measured my engine and here are some numbers.

From the top of the large reinforcing web in the valley it is 215mm (8 1/2") to the top of the cam covers.

From the top of the knock sensors it is 150mm (6") You can gain 12mm (1/2") by removing the plastic cap from the sensor.

From the top of the starter it's 85mm (3 1/2")

So you can gain 130mm without knock sensors and 65mm with the sensors.

With the manifold I built I can still get the knock sensors in.

 

[quadcam boat]

Rod, whats the new boat?? - Lexus powered I hope!
Back to belt driven starters, you mentioned the Dynastarter on your sailboat. Some aircraft use a similar setup, certainly some of the smaller turbine engines use them and may have something that is suitable. I read an article years ago about aftermarket EFI that stated a stable, modern, high output alternator was necessary for EFI. Just wondering if a generator would have a stable enough output?

 

[Zuffen]

The boat's a 24' catamaran for sailing on the lake or limited coastal trips. It can sleep 6 and 2 dogs and will cruise at 15-20 knots off the wind. Cars take a back seat to sailing in my life.

One day I'd like to build a classic wooden power boat with twin 1UZ's and of course some supercharging.

I don't think a dyna-starter would have the output you need or EFI. There must be some way of fitting a starter above the transmission. Or you could run a dyna-starter and a separate charging system for the starter only?

If you look at old Chrysler auotomatics the ring gear was welded to the torque converter.

My thought is why couldn't you fit the ring gear to the rear of the t/c and face the starter forward (as against the rearward direction in the 1UZ) and modify the bell housing to allow it to mesh.

A little out of left field but give it some thought and certainly on aboat it's do-able.

I don't like problems that can't stand a little lateral thinking.

You need to move your starter so you can fit an intercooler set up like mine.

 

[quadcam boat]

Don't think I will shift my starter at this stage. I don't have much room behind the engine to put the starter there.
I can easily extend the engine hatch upward if necessary to clear the blower/ intercooler, though I would prefer not to.
Still doing a lot of thinkin' and grinning at the moment.....
I am still keen on the Allens supercharging setup which is similar to the Jag setup; However I am concerned at the sharp angles of the junction between the inlet port and manifold that Jordy has on his Jag setup to clear the blower.
Will have a look at the setup on this 4.6L mustang motor and see how they have done it.

 

[Zuffen]

If you have plenty of room why not leave the starter where it is.

Use the lower manifold and mill the bottom out of the Ford Manifold and adapt it to the lower manifold.

The blower would sit up high but it would be a simple task to the setup and the air would flow straight through the interccoler matrix into the manifold without turning 180degrees to flow up it's sides then another 90degrees into the port for another 90degres into the combustion chamber as it does on my engine. You would need to remove the Ford runners and weld up the openings, but you would need to do that regadless.

That would be a days work for a man of your skills!

You wouldn't need to fiddle with the water bridges and other than relocating the wiring under the lower manifold it would all be stock. Go for it.