Where is the "ultimate" 1UZ thread"? Need to qualify Ross piston comment

[Deuce]

JP is a manufacturer of custom pistons in Adelaide. I think their pistons are all cast or hypereutectic, not forged, but I could be wrong.

 

[bango]

AH ha,now I get it...Duh..Seriously though,Im interested in what make a good piston..I hear so many different opinions on brands..
From what i hear Australia don't have a forging plant to make pistons..dam shame..

 

[4000GT]

e-solver,

You win.

I threw my Ross pistons out in the trash.

I'll probably run JP on your recommendation.

Of course if they fail I'll need to make a trip across the pond to talk about it with you.

Ah you have Ross pistons... that explains a few things, well, no need to get rid of them, if you do make the decision to upgrade, try selling them before you put them in the bin, I am sure they suit your application and expectations however. I dont ever recall recommending JP to anyone... I am not affiliated with any particular brand. Thats the beauty of being objective, you never have to make up stories or defend something to the bitter end inspte of the facts

 

[Zuffen]

I could make ashtrays out of them? But I suppose they aren't up to that either.

I once heard a New Zealander tell me the All Blacks didn't know how to play Rugby. On that basis he would be an expert (a New Zealander) so obviously he's corrct. Ergo The All Blacks can't play Rugby.

Same thinking as your engine builder. Just a little closer to home.

 

[4000GT]

I could make ashtrays out of them? But I suppose they aren't up to that either.

I once heard a New Zealander tell me the All Blacks didn't know how to play Rugby. On that basis he would be an expert (a New Zealander) so obviously he's corrct. Ergo The All Blacks can't play Rugby.

Same thinking as your engine builder. Just a little closer to home.

I am sure they will make fine ashtrays... but why do that? Just sell them on eBay or something if you want to get rid of them. :Flush:

The logic you are trying to apply with your rugby example is ill-conceived. My engine builder is just presenting facts about why the Ross pistons are an inferrior product. A novel approach from you would be to try and argue against the points he raised instead of just saying "oh I had better sell them" in your snarky tone... that way a more balanced discussion can be had for everyone rather than reading "ewww they are not **** pistons, I brought them afterall so they cant be" junk...

All the best...

 

[Zuffen]

E-solver,

Because your engine builder says they are rubbish, are they?

This is his opinion. Obiously a lot of other engine builders use Ross pistons and have no problem with doing so.

IF your engine builder assmebled engines for the Ferrari F1 team I may listen to hm.

What you need to do is see that this is HIS opinion. It is not necessarilly fact. Which you keep saying it is.

I didn't see too many other members rush to your support and agreeing with you.

You have singlehanded done your best to denigrate Ross pistons all on the say of an engine builder in sunny New Zealand.

Perhaps I would have the last laugh if you got a letter from Ross' Attorney.

 

[bango]

Ok,to be fair about it,the exact type of "Ross" pistons which gave hard time for your engine builder should have been stated...as Ross make many types like all Quality piston makers.. I have a mate in the states,and he builds 800+ motors NA,he uses Ross and mutters strange sounds when talking about certain other brand which I won;t mention(which to me seems like good ones).
So to have a fair "discussions" on bad pistons,all facts should be presented,its hard to throw a blanket over one brand and say they are F***...with out actural type/use and final result..?You think?I for one would like to hear about it,the good bad and ugly of Pistons..lol
Cheers

 

[4000GT]

E-solver,

Because your engine builder says they are rubbish, are they?

This is his opinion. Obiously a lot of other engine builders use Ross pistons and have no problem with doing so.

IF your engine builder assmebled engines for the Ferrari F1 team I may listen to hm.

What you need to do is see that this is HIS opinion. It is not necessarilly fact. Which you keep saying it is.

I didn't see too many other members rush to your support and agreeing with you.

You have singlehanded done your best to denigrate Ross pistons all on the say of an engine builder in sunny New Zealand.

Perhaps I would have the last laugh if you got a letter from Ross' Attorney.

He gave the reasons for the inferrior quality, you can choose to accept that or not. I see you are STILL unable to argue these points, which is the crux of this thread...

If my builder built engines for F1, I would be more inclined to listen to him about F1 engines, not about Ross pistons in street car applications

It is fact... like I said if you bothered to examine the reasons he gave which others have also heard from other builders, you may start to open your eyes a little.

You work for a company selling Ross pistons, so forgive me if I take your subjective thoughts with a grain of salt.

Yes I have based this opinion on hundreds of samples (where motors are sample points).

The Ross Attorney? Are you having a laugh? Bwahahahahaha they cant do anything legally... since you are affiliated with them, get them to write me a letter so I can post it and have a good laugh at them lol

 

[Damien]

Zuffen doesn't sell pistons. Think you got the wrong end of the stick there e-solver.

 

[4000GT]

Zuffen doesn't sell pistons. Think you got the wrong end of the stick there e-solver.

Ummm dont think I have... maybe I do, but I thought he was a moderator for Lextreme? And Lextreme sell them dont they? Maybe I am mistaken...

 

[Damien]

Drawing a long bow there - moderators don't have a financial interest. I think you may have missed the fact that a while ago Ross were the only ones who would speak to David to supply custom pistons and Zuffen went deeply out of pocket to secure a group buy on rods for the benefit of members. I don't think his motives are in question.

If you know of better options that great - get stuck into arranging a group buy just like David has with the Ross pistons.

 

[Zuffen]

My connection with the Lextreme Website is as a Moderator.

I have no financial interest in the Forum. I derive no benefit from anything sold by the Forum.

If it wasn't for the sales of goods on the Forum the Forum wouldn't exist due to the sheer size of the Forum. I wouldn't like to see the hosting bill each month.

As far as I know the Forum doesn't sell Ross pistons. It did organise two Group Purchases to obtain Ross pistons as discounted prices for members.

I actually work for a small insurance company in Sydney Australia and have never sold a new automotive part in my life. I've sold a few 1UZ bits to members but have given away a lot more than I've sold.

I'm old enough to have learnt not to believe everything I'm told.

I think the hijack should end right here and let the thread go back to building motors.

 

[4000GT]

Drawing a long bow there - moderators don't have a financial interest. I think you may have missed the fact that a while ago Ross were the only ones who would speak to David to supply custom pistons and Zuffen went deeply out of pocket to secure a group buy on rods for the benefit of members. I don't think his motives are in question.

If you know of better options that great - get stuck into arranging a group buy just like David has with the Ross pistons.

Seems like he has more invested in it than I thought! Not exactly a long bow when he has gone so far out of his way to get them, as you state. I never said he had a financial interest and I have had no problems whatsoever getting options from the other vendors supposedly unwilling to do pistons for the UZ. In fact, found they have been supplying them for some time.

I dont really car for arranging anything, been there done that and over it now. I will just contact CP or Wiseco whenever I need them since they make to the quality spec I am after

 

[4000GT]

My connection with the Lextreme Website is as a Moderator.

I have no financial interest in the Forum. I derive no benefit from anything sold by the Forum.

If it wasn't for the sales of goods on the Forum the Forum wouldn't exist due to the sheer size of the Forum. I wouldn't like to see the hosting bill each month.

As far as I know the Forum doesn't sell Ross pistons. It did organise two Group Purchases to obtain Ross pistons as discounted prices for members.

I actually work for a small insurance company in Sydney Australia and have never sold a new automotive part in my life. I've sold a few 1UZ bits to members but have given away a lot more than I've sold.

I'm old enough to have learnt not to believe everything I'm told.

I think the hijack should end right here and let the thread go back to building motors.

I never siad you gained financially...

oh and the link to the sale of Ross pistons off the forum here...http://www.lextreme.com/pistons.html

I am old enough to accept information from highly experienced people where I dont have the experience

See what I mean?

Now, I am keen to get back on topic... Zuffen, care to respond yet to the issues I raised about the Ross pistons?

 

[Lextreme II]

Drawing a long bow there - moderators don't have a financial interest. I think you may have missed the fact that a while ago Ross were the only ones who would speak to David to supply custom pistons and Zuffen went deeply out of pocket to secure a group buy on rods for the benefit of members. I don't think his motives are in question.

If you know of better options that great - get stuck into arranging a group buy just like David has with the Ross pistons.

Damien,

There are people who walk and there are people who talk. I think this discussion is little out of hand. I think if anyone want to bash any brand, they better have some objective evidence rather then pure opinion. Ross pistons are very good for its price. Rod and many hardcore members have invested time and money to help this community. Not too long ago I remember Rod put his own money to create a group buy on the rods. It was a large amount of money invested and he still have few sets left. This is pure contribution to this community.

If you can help out this community it would be great. However, try discredit our moderators is not a good thing.

 

[bango]

Yeah bro,back off with the hardline acusation bit man , Zuffen have never pushed anyone to buy Ross pistons ,He is one helpfull member,You have to remember as you do that a few years ago there was very few aftermarket parts for the 1uz,sure there's custom ones which cost an arm and legs,but not off the shelf or stock..As stated Lex had a hard time getting real service off other brand...and Ross came to the party..there are a few members here using Ross pistons fromgroup buys and report no problems so far..as for wiseco...go to the street commodore forums and you get some opinions on wiseco..not too many good ones..recon thet fracture around the pin boss...more than one gurus there...we are talking HP there...so yeay,lets get back on hard evidence on good /bad pistons..

 

[Lextreme II]

How soon we forget that Drag Barrier Celica Turbonetics Boosts Past 200 mph http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0210tur_import_drag_racing_toyota_celica Believe or not.... this 200 mhp drag car is powered by Ross Pistons....

Since day one, Turbonetics has been behind the boost of the quickest and fastest strip warriors in import drag racing. In 2000, the company decided to go beyond supplying parts to fielding a full-tilt racing effort. The tumblers aligned as Spearco Intercoolers was acquired and, just as Turbonetics was expanding, Sport Compact drag racing was undergoing a big growth spurt. When the project got off the ground, the Toyota Celica was the latest, hottest import and Turbonetics elected to use the sporty coupe to drop the bomb on SC drag racing. The project, code named Drag Barrier Celica, aimed high, indeed. Its mission was to become the first import to break 200 mph in the quarter mile and collect the $25,000 bounty put up by Summit Racing. Turbonetics teamed with the Scranton Brothers, who bolted a Turbonetics turbo to their NMCA SS Class Mustang, and went undefeated in 2001. Driver, Matt, and crew chief, Jay, are responsible for the upkeep and logistics of getting the Celica to the races.
With a 200-mph top speed goal and six second aspirations, the road to success started with a chassis stout enough to handle the rigors of four-digit power. Marc Garland Racecars of Port Richey, Florida, melded NHRA-spec chrome-moly into a superstructure that was up to the task.

The next logical step was to build an engine capable of producing four-digit power.

The party started with a TRD custom-prepped 331 ci Toyota Tundra iForce V8 block. The block featured a reinforcing girdle and was converted from two-bolt mains to four-bolt mains in a most ingenious manner, ensuring rigidity. Robert Fulco of Fulco Race Engines was given the tall order of putting the engine together in a short amount of time. This buildup was much more than an "assemble and go" proposition. Time constraints and limited parts availability challenged Robert's considerable machining talents.

The core of the problem was compression ratio. The Tundra heads were trashed in favor of more performance-oriented Lexus GS400 heads that benefited from TRD's involvement in CART. This resulted in a static compression ratio of 10.06:1. Usually, a set of custom pistons and/or a thicker head gasket would solve the compression problem, but only a gasket was available. The gasket bought Robert 9cc of the 18ccs he would need to attain the target ratio of 8.0:1. The remaining 9cc would be hard earned indeed. The engine was designed to be bored and stroked from 4.7 liters of displacement to 5.3 liters. While Ross Racing Pistons could have made another set of custom slugs, time was against this method. The next logical option was to dish the existing Ross pistons.

"The Toyota V8 was dimensionally challenged," says Robert. "The tolerance between the bottom of the piston and the top of the rod was 40 thousandths."

With logic not working, it was time to innovate. Robert elected to shorten the Carrillo rods by moving the wrist pin bore, which would drop the piston in the cylinder and create less compression. Robert accomplished this by machining the pin bore larger and adding a concentric bushing to effectively lower the bore centerline. The bushing material was Rockwell tested to ensure it was up to the task at hand.

The piston was then modified and the existing dish was expanded outward.

The V8's high-revving Ferrea-infested valvetrain is commanded by custom-ground TRD billet cams. Robert had a hard time accepting some of the numbers TRD threw at him regarding spring rates and pressure on the cam lobes.

"It was so foreign to me. I had a hard time understanding motorcycle technology on the top of a V8. I had to go with what I knew, so I made some hardened tool steel valve seats and used a few other pushrod tricks."

The project's pressure players are a set of twin Turbonetics Y2K turbos with .70 A/R compressor housings and .96 A/R turbine housings. Boost is directed to a Spearco air-to-liquid intercooler that has been cleverly positioned at the front of the engine and fitted with twin Godzilla blow-off valves.

After the chill, charge air makes its way into a TRD custom high-volume plenum intake manifold that was augmented to accept the fuel rail and other fuel system items by Wayne Young of Young's Performance.

Once the charge air is in the combustion chamber, fuel is introduced by a hard-hitting fuel system. A Weldon 2035 fuel pump keeps the Toyota V8's veins flowing while eight 160 lb/hr injectors deliver the VP C16 race gas to its final destination. Spark is generated by an MSD Digital 7 ignition system. All fuel and ignition timing events are controlled by a FAST stand-alone engine management system wired and tuned by Young's Performance. On an engine dyno, the hybrid V8 was off the chain, generating a wicked 1,260 hp at its 20 psi low-boost setting. At the engine's highest competition boost of 35 psi, Turbonetics has calculated engine flywheel power with datalogging info to be a mind-altering 1600-plus (and we mean Plus) hp.

As Mister T might say, "I pity the fool who has to put all that power to the ground." The V8 puts an ungodly twist to the car's three-speed, air-shifted Lenco gearbox. The tranny uses an 8-inch custom TCI converter with a Bruno's converter drive to keep the power flowing. The rest of the drivetrain consists of a Strange rearend with 40-spline Strange axles and a Precision Shaft Technologies driveshaft. The Toyota's brake calipers, rotors and its third member were constructed by Aerospace Components. The Celica runs Penske race shocks all around with the rear units sporting remote reservoirs. The contact patch is provided by meaty Mickey Thompson 34x17 slicks mounted on Bogart Force 5 aluminum.

The Celica has been on the scene for some time, attending shows like the 2001 SEMA Show in Las Vegas and the 2002 PRI Show in Indianapolis. The car definitely had the looks and attention to detail of a purebred speed demon, but it was time to make the impression a reality on the track.

In Gainesville, Fla., at the NHRA 2002 season opener, the Turbonetics Celica unleashed a 199-plus mph blast on its first competitive pass. Debuts do not get more impressive than that. The Drag Barrier Celica ran a 7.26 at 197.06 in the finals to take the win. Amid protests and a trail of fire on the Internet, the NHRA formed a new class, Pro V8, in the three weeks between Gainesville and the second race at Englishtown. While this separation was foreseeable (as was the backlash of domestic Mustang racers be so successful so quickly in the import scene), many were surprised it was initiated after the first event with only two V8s being campaigned. While the rules were aimed at isolating the Celica, Craig Paisley and his nitrous-fed Tundra were big losers too.

Undaunted, the Turbonetics Celica and pilot Matt Scranton rolled off the trailer at E-Town and picked up right where they left off in Florida. The Celica's first qualifying pass was a 7.13 at 198.09 mph. The second qualifying lap was a quicker and faster 7.10 at 198.99. Summit Racing should have had the check ready, because it was clearly evident the Celica was on top of its game. In eliminations, the Celica cranked out a 7.11 at 198.61 and then motored into the record books with a 7.15 at 202.55 mph. Check please. While it's easy to look at the 202-mph trap speed and be impressed, it is also worthwhile to check out the e.t.s the car was laying down--.13, .10, .11 and .15. Wow.

At the NHRA Maple Grove event in June, the Drag Barrier Celica took aim at its second goal--6-second e.t.s. With a class that has been comprised of the Celica and Craig Paisley's TRD Tundra, it's hard to get runs in. There are more qualifying opportunities than actual races. This means the Scrantons and Turbonetics must be on their game and squeeze every last ounce out of each pass. Things got off to a shaky start when the Celica ran an 8.41 at 120 in the first and only qualifying pass on Saturday. The crew worked feverishly to trace the problem to the ignition box and was fortunate enough to borrow one from the GM Racing guys. Rain cut short the first day of qualifying and an additional qualifying round was conducted on Sunday. The Celica responded with a 7.27 at 197.51.

In the finals race, which was the first round, the Celica put down a 7.036 at 200.68 mph and backed it with a 7.057-second, 201.37-mph effort on an exhibition run. This moved the mph record to more than 200 and signaled without a doubt that entrance into the 6-second club was imminent.

Would the Pro Stock guys on the domestic side of the NHRA would go for a grudge race? Turbonetics is wondering the same thing. In fact, it's operating with the assumption that the Pro V8 class will be disbanded after the 2002 season. Or, more precisely, that its car will be banned. Heck, in their minds the exile the car is going through now equates to banishment with the only other V8-powered imports in existence in America being Paisley's Tundra and the Blast SC400; the latter which hasn't seen action since the season opener. Turbonetics isn't waiting for the ax to fall. The team is having a well-known fabricator build a chassis car that will be V6-turbo powered. TRD is working on a V6 engine program, but the body of the car has yet to be decided. So, be sure to look for the Scrantons and Turbonetics to land in the Pro Class in 2003.


Now that is objective evidence. Show my something with JE pistons in the UZFE engine making serious power?

 

[4000GT]

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=183

"For a daily driven street/strip Honda, I prefer forged medium silicon content pistons. OEM's are too brittle. The Arias and Ross are too noisy"

"The low silicon, standard cast or forged pistons (i.e. Ross and Arias forged low silicon) need the highest installed clearances and rattle/rock around in cold engines"

Ok more evidence of the noise in Ross pistons which the practical experience my builder has also supports. At least we are getting to the reason why the clearances are so large in Ross pistons. Recall that the heat expansion in Ross is also greater than other brands. I can do more research to back up these findings which seem generally accepted norms from what I have seen.

 

[Damien]

That's fair enough - depends on what your aims are though. Ross 8.5:1 pistons in a 1UZ are for some serious boost and a bit of rattle when cold may well be acceptable to the owner.

 

[4000GT]

Yeah bro,back off with the hardline acusation bit man , Zuffen have never pushed anyone to buy Ross pistons ,He is one helpfull member,You have to remember as you do that a few years ago there was very few aftermarket parts for the 1uz,sure there's custom ones which cost an arm and legs,but not off the shelf or stock..As stated Lex had a hard time getting real service off other brand...and Ross came to the party..there are a few members here using Ross pistons fromgroup buys and report no problems so far..as for wiseco...go to the street commodore forums and you get some opinions on wiseco..not too many good ones..recon thet fracture around the pin boss...more than one gurus there...we are talking HP there...so yeay,lets get back on hard evidence on good /bad pistons..

I am not accusing him... and never said he pushed pistons on to anyone. You are the one with the long bow... now you say all Wiseco pistons are crap and the pin boss cracks, where is the hard evidence? You are just saying someones opinion.