Supercharger Sizing

[LondonBenji]

Maybe its just me not searching hard enough but there seem to be loads of threads on turbo sizing but not supercharger sizing.

Granted turbo's seem more popular and from what limited info I have read on SC's on the 1UZ it doesn't look like you can get anywhere near the same power as you can with turbos.....

But what about supercharger sizing if you did want to go that route with say a roots or twinscrew type supercharger, would it be possible say to achieve 500 RWHP or more on a stock internals 1UZFE with a roots or twinscrew SC?

What kind of size/type would you need? What are the calculations?

As a side question what type of supercharger gives off that sexy whine when you are on it? Much like the Merc SLR does? I believe thats the 5.5 AMG unit they use and that hits around 600+ BHP doesn't it and has a lovely whine noise to it...... what type of SC do they use?

Sorry for the millions of questions again.

 

[jibbby]

SC4's are limited due to there lack of space under the hood...Only the small superchargers like the Eaton M90's are going to fit under the hood and those little babies only put out about 100hp or so...Not much bang for the buck...

If your 1uz-fe is not sitting in a SC400 and you got more room above the motor then the possibilities are endless....Or if you can create a hood scoop on the Sc400 to free up more supercharger room you may be able to fit an Eaton M112 or something domestic and more powerful... I have seen that done on one SC400...

London your out of luck supercharging for big power on the SC400's and Soarers...Sorry man, I love the chargers too...

 

[LondonBenji]

I'm thinking more on something outside of a Lexus...... :cool2:

 

[V883]

As a side question, what type of supercharger gives off that sexy whine when you are on it?

I've got an M90 from Sprintex (they call it an S90) and I run it with a grooved (6pk) belt as opposed to a ribbed belt. The M90 is a twisted rotor roots type blower. I get the whine which you are talking about and you are right, it is cool to hear and almost addictive if you're a rev head like me.

I used to think that the blower whine was generated the ribbed belts on commonly seen 6:71 roots blowers on American V8s and knowing that I had a continuous groove belt meant that I had prepared myself for a lack of blower whine. Much to my surprise I discovered that I had a blower whine as well.

Why is the whine there though? Like I said, I thought the whine was created by air being forced out from the belt ribs as they mesh with the two cogs on the blower and the crank shaft so I asked a few questions and it seems that every blower has that whine regardless of the drive method because it's the sound of the air intake pulses being sucked into the blower that make that sound. With an air pod instead of an enclosed restrictive OEM style air cleaner housing it's more pronounced as well.

If you want to hear what it sounds like you can view this video which I took while I was on the dyno (with my first engine - got a new one on the way) to see if the belt was touching the radiator hose at full revs. Of course, I play it just to hear the blower whine so it's relevant to this discussion. Plus, this is a unique sound that is hardly ever heard from this angle.

Click on the image and a google video page will open.

 

[LondonBenji]

Schuuuuuuuu-weeeeeeet. Now thats what I am talking about! :684:

It seems like most people find it annoying, I find it intoxicating.

I'd do a supercharge just for that whine, I find it pointless to have a supercharger without the whine :no:

Turbo's make a great sound as well, especially with the whhhooootissshhhh sound on lift off :006:

Have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMGKbZWcBbE

See what I mean, it just makes my hair stand on end..... can a 1UZ with SC sound like that? Does yours? That V8 sound as well.... its like a freaking spitfire :684:

 

[jibbby]

Ever heard a supercharger serp belt slip at high rpm's?.... That doesn't sound too good or feel too good either. That can happen on some of these Supercharger kits...Just be careful that is all I am saying...

 

[V883]

How does it sound and feel? How likely is it to happen? How would I be careful? What do you suggest? When does it happen?

That video was taken with the original pulley with an engine rpm of 6500 which I believe spins the charger to it's max rpm (16k I think) and I'd go to an 8pk if I thought that would help but I'm guessing it's not possible on all the accessories as well. I'm aware that slippage is an issue but to what degree I'm not sure.

 

[jibbby]

It can happen because you have only one belt that runs off the crank and a little grab on the charger pulley in most cases..So when your peeking the rpms the grab can slip on some applications.. It's more common on the bigger chargers, but I have heard about it happening a few times on some import applications...

All I am saying is make sure you get a proven super charger kit that works... Oh and what does it sound like you asked when a belt slips? Well it sounds like alot of things actually, bog, misfire, loss of power, engine noise, etc.. If the belt starts to slip the fuel and timing gets thrown off a bit and it can get ugly....It sure doesn't sound good that is for sure...

I love the chargers too...The sound is very impressive....

 

[striker]

So you're basicley saying that you run an M90 upto 16krpm?

that thing must be running near meltdown, eaton has a stock 12Krpm rev limit for them, but since it's not a ginuine eaton jobby it might survive.

anyway Nice sound indeed

here goes
an stock ford T-bird M90 won't go over 400hp, it just can't provide the airflow to do that, unless you rev it some more, but charge temps will rocket skyhigh on these at that point and bearings will start to fail.

m112's are a tad big, don't fit under the hood, are very heavy, and soak up enourmous amounts off power up in the revrange.

so I came up with the following plan.

Mount 2 gen5 eaton M45's of a (bmw) Mini cooper S on one,
those are able to do more air than a single M90 (because of the 14Krpm redline) and do that at a far lower dicharge temperature, and together soak up less energy till about 90% of full load than a single M90, and then the single M90 wins on that only by a very small amount.

thing is I have a very trick intercooler system to keep temps down and being able to advance more than non intercooled which should free up some additional power. ECU non factory.
the BMW eaton chargers of the mini have all the fancy bearings and coating that the older ford units lack and is vastly responsible for those to make the temperature difference.
and they are far cheaper than an imported M90 on this side of the planet.

so that might be an option to.

I've just bought 2 of these units, just waiting till "24h du le-mans" next week where I'll take them delivered. they will be side mounted on both side's of the engine.

By theory and lots of research

M90 = 400hp tops (higest dyno output findable 389hp)
M112 = 512 tops (only claimed never seen done)
Twin M45 theoretical = 490hp
hopes up for 430 at less boost than the single M90 and with a higher redline

nice thing about the mini items is that the pulley on them puts them right in the ballpark of boost which the 1uzfe should survive in stock trim.

hopes up for the whine noise btw because I'm basicly going to run the crap out them, engine redline will be slave to SC redline. which means I can do 0.5-0.6bar (9-10psi) of presure all the way up to 7000rpm

I can only hope the engine will survive....

grtz Thomas

ps holycrap that's a long post!

 

[V883]

I think it was 16k. It might be 14k come to think of it. In any case I'm running it at redline at 6,500 engine rpm. I have the notes with the car which is at the new engine builder so I'll clarify when I find out what my notes said for sure. Can't comment on the other stuff as I'm pretty new at supercharged 1Uzs as well.

 

[turboandrew]

I am surprised noone has mention lysholm/autorotor/whipple twin screw superchargers. They have a 140ci charger (2.3l) that is not too big, incredbily effcient, and would probably support up to 600 rwhp. BTW, the AMGs you long over have the lysholm...

 

[mshawari1]

Striker,

How much will be the price for two M45 ??​

 

[LondonBenji]

TurboAndrew, you talking about the Whipple 2.3L? If they can hit 600bhp then 500bhp should be a safe zone for them... do they make *the* noise though

Lysholm.....I've heard that mentioned before, I think in high regard as well, are they a bit tasty? Want me to see if I can find out the price of the one used on the AMG blocks from my Merc mate?

The twin M45's sound like a great idea as long as the packaging is well sorted, but 490bhp just cuts it a little short for my hopes, I'd want to hit 500+ at the wheels......

 

[Lextreme II]

If money is not an issue, I go with with what Andrew have. However, you pick up a M112 pretty cheap on ebay. 2003 Ford Cobra with M112 with 4.6 Liters easily making 500 rwhp to 550 rwhp. Perhaps you might want to ask either Richwood or boostedtundras for a bigger crank pulley.

 

[turboandrew]

yes, the 2.3l. Not sue if they make "the sound"

 

[striker]

Yes they would make the sound, but not as loud and a little different because of the more twisted rotors.
the reason Lysholm wasn't mentioned on my behalf is Buget...... very nice but very expensive. the merc AMG ones are very expensive even in germany (believe me I've searched)

@london benji, packaging is the whole point on my install, my engine may not be higher that 59.5cm sump to top intake..... higher corners of the valve covers are 54cm so that's quite a challange, the target weight of the car the engine's going into is around 800-850kg so 400hp at the wheels will still be.. euhm completly bonkers for a street car.

for M45's try e-bay the come up very often, and they're almost all in good shape because the are removed to upgrade not because the car has done high milage like the ford M90's from usa.

Grtz Thomas

 

[jibbby]

If hood space is not an issue and you don't mind going with bigger injectors, etc...then go M112, whipple, paxton, vortex, etc.. superchargers... That is if you can actually find or create a high rise manifold to mate the other superchargers other then the Eatons to the 1uz-fe motors...

I think the M90 is a good choice if you want to stay around 300-350 horses and stick with the stock fuel systems and save a few bucks... Heck that complete M90 Ebay deal for $1500 including piggy ECU, etc.. seems like a good boost to cost option to me...

With all that being said you still are limited to further power output and that right there would be a deterant to me...350 horses could get old in about 6 months and then you may be scratching your head and putting the whole supercharger system back on Ebay wishing you had gotten something a little more powerful.... Gotta think it all over and make sure you don't have regrets....

Good luck....

 

[greybeard]

There's a useful calculator on the sprintex site
http://www.sprintex.com.au/files/Blower_Calculator.xls
It doesn't have every make & model and make quite a few arbitrary assumptions, but you can hack it to include extra's.

I have an Autorotor OA424 which is 2.4l/rev (not on a 1UZ). There's also an OA426 (2.6l/rev).

Lysholm has up to 3.3l/rev IIRC.

HtH

 

[Zuffen]

I've got an Opcon twin screw that I purchased from Andrew at Richwood.

His package has almost everthing I need to bolt the supercharger on and make it run reliably and it wasn't all that much more than using an Eaton.

Like all twin screws the outlet temps are much lower than an Eaton so I can use a little water injection to help with ignition advance.

Belts will slip if the pulley size gets too small.

If you visit some of the Ford Lightning Sites you will see additional idler pulleys below the supercharger to obtain additional wrap.

 

[JustenGT8]

There's a useful calculator on the sprintex site
http://www.sprintex.com.au/files/Blower_Calculator.xls
It doesn't have every make & model and make quite a few arbitrary assumptions, but you can hack it to include extra's.

I have an Autorotor OA424 which is 2.4l/rev (not on a 1UZ). There's also an OA426 (2.6l/rev).

Lysholm has up to 3.3l/rev IIRC.

HtH

That's a pretty handy excel file. Does seem a little optimistic though? For the M112 it gives 20psi on just over 12,000rpm (14,000rpm limit) for 570hp. If this is on the money i'm well pleased as matches my long term needs perfectly.