Supercharger and carbs.

[Jake Breyck]

so i was wondering what some of you think of this setup on a 1uz.

Ford Lighting supercharger (these things are cheap )

and two of these....
55 DCO 1 SP Weber Carburetor (these things are not cheap!!!)

megajolt light with edis for timing and possably some cams of needed

my big questions are
1. is that enough carb for this setup
2. how are people mounting a supercharger pully to the crank?


anyinput would be great, thanks.

 

[Lextreme II]

Yes but MP112 is too tall for most Lexus cars.

 

[Jake Breyck]

um i would have to see it then i guess btw this would be in a supra, and i guess trimming the hood wouldnt be a problem.

 

[rms]

Why would you want to run carburetors ?

For the price of 2 DCOE's you can almost have a top line ECU that gives proper control of spark and fuel under all situations of barometric preeure, air temp, eng temp.

Weber DCOE's are not suitable for supercharged setups. Either blow or draw through.

They are designed for 1 choke/cyl pulsing intake flow.
With a constant flow they require very small venturi's/auxiliary venturies to pick up fuel, you would probably need around 26/28mm venturi's MAX.

 

[Jake Breyck]

Why would you want to run carburetors ?

For the price of 2 DCOE's you can almost have a top line ECU that gives proper control of spark and fuel under all situations of barometric preeure, air temp, eng temp.

becouse i dont want to do the same old thing that ive done plenty of times before. and you are right i could almost buy a nice ecu, but i couldnt completly buy it, nore all the pricy supporting hardware to make it all work right, pump, injectors, veryious replaced sencors you always seem to have to get to get a stand alone working on your 1 off configureation.

but i was'nt asking if there was a better way to do it, i know there is, but if i cant contiune to be creative and do things a little diffrently then i wont learn anything new and ill just be doing the same old crap over and over again then there is no point in the first place.

Weber DCOE's are not suitable for supercharged setups. Either blow or draw through.

They are designed for 1 choke/cyl pulsing intake flow.
With a constant flow they require very small venturi's/auxiliary venturies to pick up fuel, you would probably need around 26/28mm venturi's MAX.

now this section is very usefull, do you happen to know more info related to this, are these smaller venturis aviable to buy and replace, basicly modifying the carb to suit the application a little better?

 

[cribbj]

Jake not to sidetrack your thread - but after you've looked at the MP112's with their top entry, and all the plumbing problems that'll entail, if you want to consider an M112 with side entry, like the Cobra's have, I've got a new one I'll sell you. PM me for details if interested.

I'm with RMS on trying to run a carb'd FI'd setup these days, especially with a SC. A turbocharged setup would give you a few more options. Carbs just won't give you the driveability you want with that supercharger, and with only 26mm venturi's they're going to choke the top end of a 4.0l motor. Plus if you're running it in "suck through" mode, you run the risk of puddling fuel in the SC. Running it in blow through mode might be better, but it would be a piping nightmare to try to flip the SC, etc.

You're going to have to buy a Richwood manifold for that SC anyway, or build one based on an existing 1UZ bottom half manifold, so whichever way you go, it'll already be setup for fuel injection.

TWM and others make Weber DCOE "look alike" throttle bodies, so you could put one of those on the intake of the SC, keep the EFI setup, and the engine will be a lot happier. Here's one of TWM's setups:

And Jenvey's:

I'll bet you'll spend more money trying to get that Weber to run right than you would buying a decent ECU and all the sensors for a proper EFI setup.

 

[rms]

Jake,
I've got no problem with you wanting to do something different. Would be a dull world if we were all the same.

The DCOE or IDA Webers are the ultimate carby for 1 choke/cyl NA. They can be made to work to a degree in S/C applications but really are a PITA.
We had to make the small venturis in the '60/'70's.

As much as I dislike Holley carbs for NA, you will find the Holly a better all round proposition for FI particularly if it is blow through.

 

[Jake Breyck]

well i dont know if you both of you realize but im well versed in setting up a efi system. i have 10 or so nice setups i could do on my own with out ever having to ask a quesion. ya i cant spell for **** but that doesnt mean im 9.
that said lets forget efi ever existed at all for the sake of this thead. pretend the microprocessor was never invented. an emp went off, what ever makes you sleep at night. thanks.

as for the manifold i would make it, i have all the tools to do the cutting and shapeing of metal aside from a tig but i have quite a few friends who are great tig welders so its just a matter of fabbing the parts and takeing to who ever is not busy that day. so mounting the sc is not a problem hence me never asking how to mount it.

also i liked the top feed a lot better that would allow me to make a short bent y shaped manifold to mount both carbs to eather side of the supercharger faceing the sides of the car hard to picture but again the accuall metal work isnt an issue.

as for fuel puddeling, i guess that supercharger was never built with the intention of fuel flowing though it so i can see where this is comming from. are there any pockets inside that seem like they would collect fuel (even at the high levels of turbulance and heat inside the sc?)

for an efi i know what all the little crap that comes up that drives up the price is, on this carb setup what things can you see that would drive up the cost trying to get it to work? lets ignore things i would need for both setups such as fuel pressure regulator, fuel lines ect.

so you say two of those carbs would choke off a 4.0 do you happen to have any specs on the carbs, im having a real hard time finding info such as cfm, there is a buggy shop that deals in weber products i was planning on asking them but i have to wait for a day where i have nothing better to do then drive across town just to get a few thoughts on an idea i havent really invested in yet.

dont take offence to me not wanting to hear about a better efi setup its just that i dont need info on that. this is a will it work or will it not at all, if not why and ill go on my mary way and do an efi setup on my own, not really learn anything new and be slighly dissapoined i couldnt do something diffrent with this car but be happy its working, its not that im not intrested in efi im just not intrested in it for the sake of this conversation, all of my past project where efi aside from my 66 mustang, ive never played with a supercharger ive owned a whole long list of turbo cars, all of which where modified to a large extent, my other 1uz project is twin turbo and efi but i really dont have questions on that setup will be straight forword prolly start in the first try or two just like every other car ive put togather.

basicly all that is me stressing that im not asking what else i can do, im asking if there are any thoughs on THIS setup.

although thanks for the input guys you did give me a few new things to look into. carb tuning for the diffrent flow style and puddeling in the sc. thanks.

 

[Jake Breyck]

Jake,
I've got no problem with you wanting to do something different. Would be a dull world if we were all the same.

The DCOE or IDA Webers are the ultimate carby for 1 choke/cyl NA. They can be made to work to a degree in S/C applications but really are a PITA.
We had to make the small venturis in the '60/'70's.

im gunna look into what it takes to make this work with the problems you expressed on this if there isnt a way great, but im gunna dig a little deepr then just this thread. very good point i didnt think of before to look at.

As much as I dislike Holley carbs for NA, you will find the Holly a better all round proposition for FI particularly if it is blow through.

blow though is out of the question for complexity i have a decent layout in head that i could put togather over a few weekens that would come out really clean with a draw though also with a down draft carb its seeming ilke it wouldnt look clean in the end or just be really tall as lex pointed out its gunna be a little tall as it is.

does anyone at all know where to find detailed specs on this carb? google is failing me after a few trys. even the places selling them basicly just put the name, pic, price and buy button but nothing to help figure out if its right for what ever appication. if i find out they only flow 100 cfm each or somthing really stupid like that then its a difinitive answer to just put this idea in the circular bin.

 

[rms]

Jake,
DCOE Weber carbs do not have a cfm rating, sizing is related to cyl capacity, valve size, port size, rev range etc

Just about everything is adjustable

Main system (all variable sizes)
Main jet - emulsion tube - air correction jet

Idle system
Idle jet - air corrector

Accel pump
Pump jet - bypass valve - spring rate

Main venturi - auxiliary venturi

All these variables have to work together.
Rich progression MAY BE Aux venturi, pump jet, pump bypass, idle air corrector, emulsion tube etc.

I have found the only way to learn is get your hands dirty, so good luck.

 

[Jake Breyck]

so being that everything is so adjustable wouldnt the pulsed flow vs smooth flow thing be a non issue, just a matter of adjusting it correctly? with all this in mind about how much hp would two 55s be able to support?

 

[rms]

Thats a bit like saying an F1 car is totally adjustable so I can adjust it to be like a road car.
Sure it will work to a degree, but it will be outside its design parameters.

How much hp ? How long is a bit of string?

Cosworth BDA 1600 Atnlantic 2 x 48 DCOE 225bhp
F5000 Chev 5ltr 4 x 50 IDA 500/530bhp
Coventry Climax 2.5ltr F1 2 x 58 DCOE 240 bhp

All 1960/1970's
Injection has been used ever since.

There is only one way to find out Jake.

 

[MWP]

Remember youll also have to do stuff like box up the carbs and play with the carb fuel supply system to get it to work.

 

[Anaema]

this all makes me glad i like to work on computers more than cars. much simpler.

 

[Jake Breyck]

Thats a bit like saying an F1 car is totally adjustable so I can adjust it to be like a road car.
Sure it will work to a degree, but it will be outside its design parameters.

How much hp ? How long is a bit of string?

Cosworth BDA 1600 Atnlantic 2 x 48 DCOE 225bhp
F5000 Chev 5ltr 4 x 50 IDA 500/530bhp
Coventry Climax 2.5ltr F1 2 x 58 DCOE 240 bhp

All 1960/1970's
Injection has been used ever since.

There is only one way to find out Jake.

I did not ask how long is a piece of string, i asked how long is a piece of string on this spool.

i realize if i had asked how much hp could i make with a carb then that would be an un answerable question. alot like a piece of string.

and your are right difinitivly there is only on way to find out, but im not gunna invest in it if i could get a well thought out or sorced reason why it would not work, for example the carb is way smaller then i was thinking and it just wont flow enough. like i said ill invest a saturday and pick the brains of the local buggy shop they have pleny of experance with these carbs on verious applications.



MWP: i think you are thinking about blow though. as i stated i would not do a blow though setup due to the complexity, a draw though does not need a pressuized fuel system like blow though sence the carbs will not see pressure.

i think everyone totally mises the point to all this, its like, why ride a horse we've had cars sence the 1900s.

thanks for the input ill go on my way and find out the old fassion way.
im dropping the subject here.

 

[cribbj]

Jake, give Inglese Induction Systems a call and get their thoughts on this.

Back in the 60's they were the experts in the US on mating Webers, Roots blowers, and domestic motors, and getting it all work.

 

[Jake Breyck]

do you have any further infomation about that company number? address, web address? thanks ill check them out.

 

[cribbj]

A Google on Inglese found their main website: http://www.inglese.com/

They're not that far from you either - in Memphis, TN

 

[striker]

Racetep would be knowing a thing or two about this too

We have a mini with a metro turbo driving around here in holland who's doing 300hp on a suck through dhla 48 dellorto, so a it's possible but don't ask about fuel consumption in this thing..... a WOII sherman tank would probably be more efficient.

did you look into the SU range carbs also, they tend to be cheaper than the weber/dellorto/mikuni style things, the older rover V8 engines have big ones fitted which do upto 360hp NA in the 750motorclub kit series in the UK, they seem a lot easier to set up. and also oldskool enough for your project i think.

I wouldn't build it myself but thumbs up for thinking out of the box Jake!

grtz Thomas

 

[Jake Breyck]

striker thanks thats awsome, see this was the kinda info i was hopeing to get from the getgo. the price of these seem a lot lower then webers as well. makeing it all that much more likly that i would put to togather just to see if it will work.

do you have any pointers as to where best find info on the s carbs, such as what to look for to get a carb thats correct for my application?

as for gas milage the car is just for fun, it really doent matter what milage it gets its a completly stripped out mk3 supra so no ac, heat, interior ect.
this car will never be a commter again, if i do drive it to work its only a 2 mile trip anyhow, road trips would be out of the question. it would see trackdays autocross and soem drift events.