Oil Consumption & Quality

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Lextreme II

Just call me "Lex"
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12,033
Location
City of Halos
Ever since I installed my turbo, I noticed the quality of oil is always very bad. With in 200-500 miles, the engine oil looks very dark to black. I change my oil very often. Beside the quality of oil is somewhat bugging, but i normally loose about half a qt every 500-750 miles (half qt every 2 to 3 weeks.) What do u guys think and open up for comments.
 
do not know what oil you use but in my last turbo car (with modded 4g63 turbo engine) castrol tws work very fine. try good synthetic racing oil.
 
perhaps turbo rise average oil temperature so it start flush crudes inside engine faster. so oil becomes dirty faster.
 
Check your blowby. It's not uncommon for a non-turbo set of pistons and rings to have blowby issues. What are your end gap and ring types? What kind of cylinder prep was done? Which turbo are you running?

-Kirk
 
is the turbo watercooled? If not, that is part of it and do you have a oil cooler installed on the car? another thing to keep in mind is that color is not going to tell you everything about the condition of the oil.

as for the usage, a little bit is normal for a turbo motor, but no more then about a half a qt in 3000miles. blowby as turbotwig pointed out is a good possibility. do a leakdown test on the engine as it will give a very good idea as to the condition of the engine.
 
David, on the oil consumption, perhaps the turbo itself is consuming it from too much oil pressure going to it? Did you ever get your orifice problem sorted?

On the cleanliness issue, it's just a fact of life that turbo motor oil gets dirtier faster than with NA motors. Put any oil in a 700 DegF blender and it'll come out looking pretty bad.

Back on the blowby - have you run a compression and leakdown check now that your motor is broken in? What kind of numbers did you get?
 
Blowby and "leakdown tests" are completely different. No engine will EVER have zero blowby, I don't care how new it is. Blowby measures the volumetric flowrate past the rings into the crankcase. Sure this is similar to a leakdown test, but I generally don't care how well my cylinders are sealed when the engine isn't running. Leakdown tests are fine to determine if you have a big problem with the valves sealing (i.e. burnt valve or crappy seating) or a big problem with a piston (i.e. a hole in the piston).

Blowby is the general cause of "dirty oil". What kind of piston to cylinder clearance is your engine builder running? What method did he use to hone the cylinders? I'd ask what kind of top ring tension he's running, but that's something that usually isn't available.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/ntk_engine_blowby_meter.pdf#search='blow%20by%20measurement'

http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/pcrops.htm


And if you really want to understand what's going on...
https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/27129/1/56844809.pdf

Careful, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

The reason I asked what kind of turbo you're running is because non-watercooled center housings tend to coke unless there is a proper shutdown process. Water cooling of the center housing does absolutely nothing for oil consumption/oil cleanliness while the engine is running. The oil is doing most of the cooling of the center housing during operation. The water jacket cools the center housing and rotating assembly AFTER you shut off the engine by setting up a thermal siphon. The other thing to be aware of is your turbine side piston ring seals could be worn out, but that's less likely to contribute significantly on a low mileage turbo. Is the turbo a journal bearing? If it is, there is a possibility that your thrust bearing is worn and the turbine side piston rings have been eaten through by the step bore in the center housing. This is why I always recommend that people pumping up the boost (pressure ratio) use a Garrett ball bearing turbo rather than a regular old journal bearing turbo. The thrust capacity and "non-wearing" nature of the ball bearing cartridge is truly superior compared to a regular journal and thrust bearing system.

-Kirk
 
Kirk, I see from your profile that you are a 25 year old turbo designer employed by Garrett. Apparently you're also a well read authority on engines, so I commend you on your chosen occupation as well as your wealth of knowledge and experience, and look forward to learning as much as I can from your contributions.

Concerning leakdown and compression tests, I have always thought that if an engine has consistent compression across the cylinders, then its valves are probably sealing OK, and more than likely it doesn't have any gaping holes in its pistons, and the head gasket is probably still intact between the cylinders; agreed?

Now if the same engine doesn't produce good leakdown numbers, what's left besides blowby?

BTW, since you work for Garrett and are understandably advocating their GT turbo's what size orifice do you recommend for their oil supply lines? I well realise the orifice size calculation is a function of the supply pressure and flow, however give it a shot and let us know what has worked well, empirically.

Some Supra owners have had a devil of a time with oversupplying oil to these new turbos, and have had numerous problems from actually puking oil out the seals to just burning copious amounts of it. Some have even given up on the GT's and gone back to the older models, so it would be very useful to hear recommendations from the horse's mouth, as it were.
 
Hey Turbo,

Thanks for putting in your expertise. I am running GT40 but i need to find out my oil rings specs. I dont have any blowby.
 
Excuse my ignorance of the Precision 'modified' lineup... is that the regular GT40 with ONLY a different A/R turbine housing (or do they change the shaft wheel too)?

-Kirk
 
Cribbj,

Yeah, compression tests are good for what you described. Most professional engine builders I know don't really do leakdown tests because they aren't always consistent and aren't really repeatable. You could try forever to get an engine to give you even, good leakdown results... and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference on the dyno. Blowby is a MUCH better indication of actual operational engine sealing. You can see stuff like ring flutter and sometimes detonation (causing the rings to unseat). You can also tell if a motor is getting tired and may be in need of a rebuild. With that said, some types of engines that see very stressful, short duty cycles (think drag engines) will have drastically different requirements for ring seal than say a daily driver. This is why I asked about how the Lextreme's engine builder put this particular engine together.

Now that I've blabbed on about blowby for long enough, there are about 10-15 different reasons why Lextreme's engine could be having problems with oil consumption and 'quality' after adding a turbo. Unfortunately, without a lot of data, it's a complete crapshoot as to the actual cause (or causes) of his problems. Something that is done for OE applications is to plot center housing leakage vs. pressure differential across both the compressor and turbine piston ring seals. Depending on where on the compressor map you're operating (directly related to your turbo match), the seals can leak. It doesnt mean they're bad, it's just not possbile for them to seal under all conditions you throw at them. The leakage can be pronounced when you've got a oversized compressor running low boost. I'm not sure what kind of boost you're running and power you're making. Just something to think about.

Do you have any smoke out the tailpipe on acceleration? There are about 5 different possible causes for that if there is... most of which have nothing to do with the turbo. Unless you can pull apart the turbo it's basically impossible to assess if it's the turbo of the engine.

For people that have puking oil problems, the most 2 most common problems are oversupply and poor drainage. The drains on all of our turbos MUST BE AT LEAST 1/2" INNER DIAMETER! Larger frame size journal bearing turbos can require even larger return lines sometimes. The other thing that is CRITICAL is that the oil drain back ABOVE THE OIL LEVEL IN THE PAN. If there is any possiblity that the oil can back up into the turbo, then you're almost guaranteed to have problems. The other thing that's very important is the drain line must have a generous slope back to the pan or else it is possible to get oil backed up into the center housing.

Journal bearing turbos require MUCH more oil than our ball bearing cartridge turbos. Don't confuse the GT line with ball bearings. Any turbo with the 'R' designation after it means it has the ball bearing. GT is just our current product line. GT series turbos have improved aero wheels and better wheel materials. I've seen some small oil feed fitting restrictors. A GT28 can probably get away with a .075 hole (or maybe smaller). To give you an example of oil flow requirements... the crankshaft on a 1.6L Cosworth BDA that I've been involved with uses 0.050" hole at normal oil pressures to lubricate the ENTIRE bottom end at 12,000 RPM. The best people to ask should be our performance distributors. They have direct connections with the people that run our turbos, so they could tell you what other people have run before.

Now, truth be told, I forgot that I ever put where I work on my profile. I hate to have that on there because people don't always take what you're saying with a grain of salt. I'm not the "horse's mouth" by any means. I've got my opinions, and they don't necessarily reflect the views or recommendations of Garrett. As such, I don't like to be thought of as an "expert" for turbos.

Anyway... yes, I suppose I'm biased toward choices in turbo brand. I'm going to be quite honest with you... We produce extremely high quality turbochargers. The aftermarket group at Garrett uses OE production released parts, so they're top quality in design, engineering, and manufacturing. I KNOW first hand how much engineering goes into every turbo we've ever made. I KNOW how much testing and how much history there is behind every component and every turbocharger assembly we make. If you could see what I see every day, you'ld never even consider using another aftermarket turbocharger.

The unfortunate circumstance of selling to the aftermarket is that the people in the aftermarket are generally kooks. Most turbo failures we hear about are 100% because the person using it didn't actually know what they were doing. Personally I think it's a shame that Turbochargers and Maximum Boost are the only two books that most people can read and understand. If I ever get enough motivation, I'd like to write a better turbocharger book that actually explains what's going on with turbochargers. The information is out there, but most people need to raise their level of understanding (MORE READING!!!) before they 'go turbo'. I suppose that's why I'm here answering questions...

-Kirk
 
I agree, leakdown testing is meaningless to an engine builder, on a brand new engine, unless his scope of supply includes break in of the motor.

But for me, and probably many other people, leakdown is simply a good, cheap diagnostic tool to help isolate and diagnose problems, including blowby. When I run a leakdown, I do pay attention to the numbers and the consistency between cylinders, but I pay more attention to where the air is exiting the motor; that tells me lots about where the problem is.

Another way David could isolate his oil consumption problem would be to simply pull the turbo cartridge off temporarily, leaving the turbine housing in place on his motor. He'd have to build a steel or aluminum blockoff plate with some hi temp gasket seal to cover the turbine flange where the cartridge mounted, but that shouldn't be a big deal. Then he could plug off the oil supply line, throw a K&N temporarily on his air intake, and voila, he's got himself an NA motor. He can then drive around for a few days and see if he still has an oil consumption problem without the turbo.
 
I am 99% sure the oil consumption is from the turbo. I have a see thru catch can and its basically no fluid at all. This see thru catch can was filled with fluid (oil and water vapor) initial when the engine was brand new. I guess right now the engine is pretty much broken in. No blowby, no oil leak from the engine. Therefore, I really feel the oil consumption would mainly from the turbo and turbo heat.
 
On the next oil change, just spend your $20-30 on an oil anylisis kit. Be sure to give them a baseline. That'll let you know how things are wearing, along with how the oil is doing. It's invalueable.
Personally... I would do a quick flush on it, just to see what comes out.
There are many ways of doing it. My favorites:
Seafoam
Marvel Mystery Oil
Classic Diesel fuel / High grade Kerosene flush.
All work well. They all have their own instructions, but the basic premis is dump it in the oil, let it idle for 10min, then change the oil.
As much of a Seafoam pimp as I am. The last year - I've been ontop of the old-school diesel fuel flushing.
*Drop a quart in the crankcase
*Let it idle for 10 min (The oil WILL thin out a large amount - DO NOT let it idle for 20min.)
*Change the oil.
For years when I got it, this v6 was making even m1 synthetic black after a few hundred miles. A few flushes - now it's like normal, it'll go the 5000-7500 miles without being black.

I agree with cribbj on compression / leakdown testing.
$9.99 @ harbor frieght buys a copmression tester, $19.99 buys a leak-down/compression tester.




David what size oil line do you have? 4AN right?
 
Ya know, you could be blowing it out the turbine seal - that wouldn't show in a catch can.

That's where I see many people make a mistake. Running 4AN lines. It's not a problem when the seals are in tip-top shape, but -eeeeek.
A restricted 3AN, or about an 1/8" line is really all you need IMHO - until you jump up into diesel semi-trucks LoL!
With the thick oils that many people still use with hi-po (sae 50's), all the stock Toyota oil pumps I know of relieve pressure around 70psi, but I've seen my fair share of oil pressure gauges on the turbo supply line hit 90-100psi+ - which should never happen on the stock pumps in the first place - Just because of running thick oils.

I wouldn't want to think what a high-flow pump might do on a worst-case basis. Eh, just a thought.
I'm not blaming the oil, but just throwing that idea out there that if it's not restricted... It could just be too much pressure for the even "new" GT's seals to handle.


If it were me? I'd:
1) Flush it
2)
A - Restrict the oil line
B - Drop a grade of oil 50 to a 40.

Just some thoughts.
 


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