NCOP regs - AUSTRALIA

[Pro]

hey all - i'm sure you've all seen Peewee's (CrUZida?) threa on Toymods about the NCOP regs.

But i would like to bring up a Q about the regs.

it seems all the discussion is focussed on the LA2 regs for modifying - with that neat little table for engine displacement vs weight.

now, correct me if i'm wrong, and i'm very happy for you to do so, but LA3 focusses on fitment of non-standard turbo/supercharger fitment to modified engines with a greater than 20% capacity/weight over original.

there's no little neat table here - it seems you need to compy with minimum ADR regulations, VSRs (vehicle standard regs), Vehicle Standard Bulletins (VSBs) blah blah blah.

now, vehicle assessed under LA3 are for vehicles that fall outside the jurisdiction of LA1 and LA2 - which makes me wonder if LA3 assessed vehicles are able to use an eng's cert to bypass the weight/displacement calcs....?

if - how on earht in victoria are folk still able to turbocharge their 308s in ther HZ kingers? technically the biggest engine they can turbo is a 4.6L - so something ain't right here. and before you go an say " oh they just got the 308 in there, rego'd then turbo'd it", not everyone is doing this - nor are they likely to due to the draconian police attitude to modified vehicles over there - getting caught is a big issue.

food for thought and discussion, please.

cheers.

 

[Cobber]

now, correct me if i'm wrong, and i'm very happy for you to do so, but LA3 focuses on fitment of non-standard turbo/supercharger fitment to modified engines with a greater than 20% capacity/weight over original.

The way I read it.
It is more focused on OEM replacement engines.

LA1= straight replacement within OEM original design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer not greater than 20% refer chart

LA2 = replacement engine greater than 20% original OEM design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer refer chart

LA3 = engines outside LA1 & LA2 no chart

Ford never made a turbo 308 so it is a LA3 checklist same as a turbo or super charged 1uz.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx

 

[-Nemesis-]

There are other sneaky methods to engineer/register vehicles I think also. Look at some of the stuff out there like the YLDTOY Ke Corolla, registered with a blown big block or something in it.

Maybe registering it from scratch as a custom built vehicle?

 

[Pro]

mah YLDTOY was rego'd as YLDTOY first, then the super small block fitted and never presented for inspection. rego is paid, plates are kept, but street car it aint.

so cobber - in essence, LA3 has no chart therefore it's pretty much as long as it doesn't infringe ADRs etc with eng's certification?

i could get a turbo 1UZ into a KE70 using LA3 regs because there are no guidelines...? or turbocharge a 308 in an LX torana? or supercharge a 351 in an XY? or a supercharged 2UZ in an RA22? because this is how i'm interpreting it - and i'm sure a letter of justification could be presented upon inspection.

basically - my kingswood (HG) is 1328kg. using the LA2 regs, the max size for a turbo/super engine in 3.0x the weight - so 3984cc, or 4.0x for NA - 5312cc.

now, i know there are turbo/super 308ci kingswoods floating around, all very legal, all running gas for those built after 1976 - having seen them personally.

a turbo 1UZ aint gonna cut it in my HG - just not enough low end grunt - i need something bigger. someone said why not a 2JZ, but again, my 192ci puts out more torque than a 2JZ off boost.

so if LA3 regs can be used to shoehorn anything in, i will look to do it up.

it doesn't seem fair that a CA18DET in a KE30 is completely legit, or a 1JZGTE in a 77 Celica is fine, under LA2, but a turbo 308 in a kingswood is not....?!?!?

LA3 may just be my saviour.

 

[Cobber]

That's just the way I read it. Read page 23.

GM (sorry I put Ford in my earlier reply) never offered a turbo 308 so you can put one on under LA3 checklist. I see no reference to a weight chart in LA3.

Drop in and see the guys at Welshpool tech section for their interpretation before you spend a cent. I have been there a couple of times and they are very helpful.

 

[-Nemesis-]

mah YLDTOY was rego'd as YLDTOY first, then the super small block fitted and never presented for inspection. rego is paid, plates are kept, but street car it aint.

I remember back when it first appeared, along with that green Escort V8 thing (diving into ten year old memory here) and seeing them at the Supernats back when it was at Penrith.

The talk around then was that they could register them conditionally. I'm sure one or both was said to be registered as Farm Equipment or something similar. Because there's no cc restriction on machinery. Something trick like that. If it were true though, I assume it would mean additional rules to driving on road or something. Maybe it was BS?

(sorry for branching left of topic but it sparked my memory of it)

 

[Pro]

i rememebr that grenn esky - had the RS2000 front end and a edelbrock tunnel ram.

maybe 10 years ago you could do that - i dunno - 10 years ago i was playing with RX7s and RX3s.

 

[Pro]

That's just the way I read it. Read page 23.

GM (sorry I put Ford in my earlier reply) never offered a turbo 308 so you can put one on under LA3 checklist. I see no reference to a weight chart in LA3.

Drop in and see the guys at Welshpool tech section for their interpretation before you spend a cent. I have been there a couple of times and they are very helpful.

yeah i think i will.

a mate of mine is building an SLR5000 torrie with the 308 and wants a turbo - but the LA2 rules don't allow it.

i thought about a basic 355-stroker 308, VN heads, hyd roller cam, single plane manifold and spacer with my big turbo for the HG. only reg'd ad a 5.0, they came with a 327 so it should be just fine IMO - but i will check.

 

[edz]

NCOP V2 is up for comment by 30 April

now, correct me if i'm wrong, and i'm very happy for you to do so, but LA3 focuses on fitment of non-standard turbo/supercharger fitment to modified engines with a greater than 20% capacity/weight over original.

The way I read it.
It is more focused on OEM replacement engines.

LA1= straight replacement within OEM original design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer not greater than 20% refer chart

LA2 = replacement engine greater than 20% original OEM design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer refer chart

LA3 = engines outside LA1 & LA2 no chart

Ford never made a turbo 308 so it is a LA3 checklist same as a turbo or super charged 1uz.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx

Agreed, for La1 and 2, they are talking about optional engines fitted to that model, ie: upgrading a 302 to a 351 in a ford if it was available from the factory.

I agree on the comment for La3, I'm currently looking at the NCOP as it is up for review and I want to get my car registered before it comes in for this very reason. ACT rego and the engineers all quote the power / wt table as being the ants pants however in the current document there is no reference that says modifications in LA3 must meet table La1 in the LA2 section? Can anyone find this or have they all been reading it wrong and just assumed it to be correct? The new version is changing a lot of the 'shoulds' to must to tighten things up so it's going to get harder!

Note: in the draft changes - this has been fixed! This is from the summary of changes so far - http://www.pharosalex.com.au/pages/33acs5.html


Section LA
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Table LA1 has now been relocated to clause 2.13 of General Requirements and the table has now been reduced to two vehicle mass categories, 1100kg or less and over 1100kg tare mass.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Table LA1 now applies to all categories that require certification under this Section of the NCOP.


Don't get too excited about the review, it seems this review is just about fixing innacuracies. The next review will most likely look at changes. Comments due buy April 30! This is the link or get to it from the bottom of infratructure ncop page www.pharosalex.com.au

As for how do people get around this? Each state has it's own variation and is still allowed flexibility. For example, NSW uses a different set of multipliers, SA allow ICV's with older engines, so I know of people who register in SA and then aplly for registration transfer to their state! I've added the ACT(NCOP) and NSW tables below.

'quote - Nemesis' Maybe registering it from scratch as a custom built vehicle?' - If you do this, you must either be a modified vehicle (and meet the NCOP) or be an ICV which meens meeting current ADR's, having a motor that is lees than two years old (or still in production at less than 2 years ago), etc - a nightmare and a $3000 engineering bill!

 

[Peewee]

Each state has it's own variation and is still allowed flexibility. For example, NSW uses a different set of multipliers, SA allow ICV's with older engines, so I know of people who register in SA and then aplly for registration transfer to their state! I've added the ACT(NCOP) and NSW tables below.

AFAIK WA is the only state that is 100% following the NCOP's.
From your post it sounds like ACT is too?
QLD was talking about it, but haven't come on board yet (they still have that $50 mod plate system...)
NSW and VIC last I heard refused to follow the NCOP.
TAS was following NCOP to a degree, but not to the letter.
NT, NFI.

And that table you've posted above for the NSW section I'm pretty sure is wrong. From memory NSW's rules on engine capacity vs vehicle weight is more strict than what the NCOP states.

 

[Cobber]

ICV rules in WA are on the change as well, we currently have the word "Intent" and I think this will go in the not too distant future.

I'm pretty sure in WA any engines modified in any way that is not offered by an OEM will be required to pass an IM240 test in LA1, 2 or 3 category.

As mentioned before above check with your local department.

 

[Peewee]

As long as you are running a stock ecu, 'stock' engine (ie, sounds/looks stock), a catalytic converter, and a charcoal canister then I don't believe they'll ask for an IM240 test.

Stray outside the above, and they'll ask for one. (edit: missed your 'modified' comment)

 

[edz]

NSW Ncop

AFAIK WA is the only state that is 100% following the NCOP's.
From your post it sounds like ACT is too?
QLD was talking about it, but haven't come on board yet (they still have that $50 mod plate system...)
NSW and VIC last I heard refused to follow the NCOP.
TAS was following NCOP to a degree, but not to the letter.
NT, NFI.

And that table you've posted above for the NSW section I'm pretty sure is wrong. From memory NSW's rules on engine capacity vs vehicle weight is more strict than what the NCOP states.

ACT is 100%
NSW is 90% and I have heard their minister is questioning why they are not 100%.

As for the NSW Table - my table is correct - it's a paste from the guidelines_for_light_vehicle_modifications on their site - http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrat..._for_light_vehicle_modifications_nov_2007.pdf. NSW didn't like the original table so they made their own version. NSW are also a little more sensible and allow wider wheels on older vehicles.

As for them being stricter, the NCOP is the first one, NSW is the second one. They are stricter on NA engines unless your vehicle came out with a six cylinder, then you automatically go into the top category with a better multiplier. I'm thinking of an FC Holden my mate can register with a 305 chev in NSW but only a 253 under the NCOP/ACT. They are better on turbo / supercharged engines.

 

[edz]

ncop future

yeah i think i will.

a mate of mine is building an SLR5000 torrie with the 308 and wants a turbo - but the LA2 rules don't allow it.

i thought about a basic 355-stroker 308, VN heads, hyd roller cam, single plane manifold and spacer with my big turbo for the HG. only reg'd ad a 5.0, they came with a 327 so it should be just fine IMO - but i will check.

Correct at the moment - subject to your local rta interpretations. In the draft version 2 being discussed, the table applies to LA1, La2 and LA3 - removing options to turbo/supercharge a lot of cars! www.pharosalex.com.au

 

[edz]

now, correct me if i'm wrong, and i'm very happy for you to do so, but LA3 focuses on fitment of non-standard turbo/supercharger fitment to modified engines with a greater than 20% capacity/weight over original.

The way I read it.
It is more focused on OEM replacement engines.

LA1= straight replacement within OEM original design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer not greater than 20% refer chart

LA2 = replacement engine greater than 20% original OEM design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer refer chart

LA3 = engines outside LA1 & LA2 no chart

Ford never made a turbo 308 so it is a LA3 checklist same as a turbo or super charged 1uz.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx

Actually, on re-reading again, it's not focussed solely on standard engines.

LA1= straight replacement within OEM original design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer not greater than 20% - note it does not refer to Table LA1

LA2 = fitting of a replacement engine (ie: different engine) with more than 20% greater weight or power than the original OEM design engines or options offed by the first manufacturer - refer Table LA1

LA3 focuses on fitment of non-standard turbo/supercharger to standard engines! note it does not refer to Table LA1

But again, version 2 draft refers to the table in all instances!

I've copied the relevant bits from the document below.

 

[edz]

As long as you are running a stock ecu, 'stock' engine (ie, sounds/looks stock), a catalytic converter, and a charcoal canister then I don't believe they'll ask for an IM240 test.

Stray outside the above, and they'll ask for one. (edit: missed your 'modified' comment)

In NSW, add stock intake air system, no pod filter etc - I know of people who have been defected and booked.

 

[Peewee]

As for the NSW Table - my table is correct - it's a paste from the guidelines_for_light_vehicle_modifications on their site - http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrat..._for_light_vehicle_modifications_nov_2007.pdf. NSW didn't like the original table so they made their own version.

Interesting.
Historically speaking NSW has always been the strictest when it comes to putting larger engines in, I wonder why the change.

 

[Cobber]

There are ways and means to do things, use your noodle not your doodle. $50 general exemptions are still available in Western Australia. If you don't ask and apply you don't get.

Keep informed of the wants of the department involved and don't read into the NCOPs to the letter. Each individual engineer at the department can have a different interpretation to another.

My advise again is to go in and personally talk with your relevant department, they can be quite flippant on the phone but in person can be very helpful and suggestive on a few options on how to do things.

 

[edz]

There are ways and means to do things, use your noodle not your doodle. $50 general exemptions are still available in Western Australia. If you don't ask and apply you don't get.

Keep informed of the wants of the department involved and don't read into the NCOPs to the letter. Each individual engineer at the department can have a different interpretation to another.

My advise again is to go in and personally talk with your relevant department, they can be quite flippant on the phone but in person can be very helpful and suggestive on a few options on how to do things.

I couldn't have said it better myself Cobber.

Even under the NCOP system, a mate of mine took his car to rego to show the boys how being over track with commodore suspension actually improved the handling, even though it was 50mm over their defined maximum. They said, not a problem, we'd pass that as they could see it improved th safety of the car.

As for engineers, I know of two identical cars being built, under two different engineers and they keep us laughing as they are both in the ACT under the same rules! One wants a weld in chassis kit, the other won't allow a chassis kit, one has to have a roll bar, the other not, .........and on the list goes.

My motto is - If you don't like the first answer, shop around!

 

[Peewee]

Its my understanding that the NCOP reduces an engineers ability to certify anything he likes. Gone are the days where as long as you had an engineers report the guys at the pits would accept it. The engineers now have to work inside the NCOP guidelines, which for the most part are rarely open to interpretation.

Also back on the wheel track thing, I wanted to increase the track in my car by I think 38mm (25mm is legal limit) and I called them up to see if I could do it, get dispensation, etc, and the short answer I got was 'no, its not needed on a road car' which in reality is the truth.

The guys your mate spoke to obviously didn't think about the extra stress/strain put on the axles/bearings by increasing track by so much, which over time could well cause fatigue and then become a hazardous safety issue. Not to mention any other potential problems relating to bump steer and tramlining (which I won't go into, mainly because I don't fully understand it).

Back on topic, to the best of my knowledge WA is following the NCOP's 100% to the letter of the law, and not letting anyone stray outside the regs (where the regs are clear). Where the regs are more open to interpretation they are letting you walk the line a bit, as long as the engineer accepts it. Every time I've called up and asked about something slightly outside the regs, its been denied.
I only go and talk to them when I've found a loophole somewhere, and need to make sure I can use it before I go spend money.

Cobber, could you explain more about this $50 excemption? I've never heard of it. Its not something they freely advertise.