M90 versus M112

[JustenGT8]

Anyone with a bit of experience with both care to share their thoughts on the respective performance of these 2 roots SCs on a 1UZ? and any tips on optimising a M112?

 

[Zuffen]

Of the two mentioned I would go with the M112.

Check some US forums for Cobras or Ford lightnings as they use 112's and quite often touch on porting them.

 

[JustenGT8]

Thanx Rod,
I already have the 112...Jag XKR setup with twin a/w IC, sweet. More interested in the advantages (if any) of the 112 over the M90. What sort of revs i should be spinning it at on a 4 litre to get the best boost/least heat efficiency would be handy....i can custom make any combo of pulley size so i can get it exactly spot on what's been shown to work best

 

[LondonBenji]

as with my other thread I am interested in what is capable with supercharging the this engine.... with this SC or others, can you hit 500+ bhp?

 

[JustenGT8]

Hey Bengi,
I found this article which suggests 500hp flywheel is probably doable with a M112

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/10/BlowerPorting/index.php

If these guys are getting well over 400rwhp on a 4.6litre you might just get you 500hp flywheel with the right mods. I'd suggest water injection though as well as a good IC.

 

[Lextreme II]

6-8 years ago when I was really into Cobras and Mustangs. The 2003 Cobras were making 500rwhp without much effort. Its like pulley, headers and ECU mods.

 

[Zuffen]

I have adyno simulation on an M112 interccoled 1UZ making 610hp and 554lbft of torque.

From memory I think a drive ratio of 1.87:1 worked best with a sensible red line of 6,500rpm.

Reving the Eaton over 12,000rpm just increases gas temps to unmanagable levels.

 

[striker]

I've been told by a couple of very experienced jag tuners that the M112 they used on the XKR is more or less at it's maximum and leaves very little upgrading on the charger part because of intake temps and these have a pretty good IC system stock, they make 375rwhp.

discharge temp and power taken from the cranck is your enemy. seems that all the disadvantages of the big and heavy m112 put enough people off and makes them place an m90

look at capa's website for all sorts of diagrams, and take into acount which generation charger you have, there are huge differences in the temperature of various incarnations.

here's the charts for the Generation 3 series attached.

Grtz Thomas

 

[JustenGT8]

Interesting info all...quite a variety of potential results...a big difference between 375rwhp and 500rwhp.

I'll check out the CAPA site thanks Thomas.

Still looking to try a twin charge setup so top end should still be handled by the turbos if it all works as some say....with the SC just filling in the lower/mid range. Worth optimising the SC if at all possible though eh

 

[striker]

Hey justin,

so You're looking to twin charge the system?
than would not even consider running the huge M112 for the low midrange set-up.
do the M90 on high boost till 4000rpm, it would mean flow for 390hp at that that rpm and then let the chargers sign off and let the turbo(s) take over from there, you should be able to have enourmous boost on the turbo at that point. balance th e boost via the recirc valve on the M90 and there should be no real spike in power.

Have you decided whether the system will be sequential or compound yet?
the older thread dicussion was about that wasn't it?

grtz Thomas

 

[LondonBenji]

Yes basically you the overall conclusion seemed to be to blow the the TC through the SC and do not decouple the SC or anything...... compound all the way.

Rod: I'd be interested to know what would be required to hit that kind of target, I'm guessing at the crank, but that should be fine for 500rwhp easily.

 

[striker]

Than I'm out,

completly different rules and temp charts will be in order when doing that.
isentropic expansion is very very hard material. hail to the people that know this, not those that can build this but truly know what they're doing.

regards Thomas

 

[LondonBenji]

Pah. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow... it'll be fine

 

[JustenGT8]

Yeah compound as that was the considered opinion of those most experienced with this in that thread.

I have the M112 already so that's what i'm stuck with. All the work to fit it to my TTUZ is the same as fitting to another engine so has to be done anyways. If the twin charge doesn't provide any benefits then i'll just pull the SC setup off and stick on another UZ proj as SC only. My TT setup is already awesome so i'll be surprised (pleasantly though) if the SC does make a great difference.

This is the plan but so much on the go at present i'm not 100%.

 

[Zuffen]

The simution for 600HP had Ross pistons, Kelford cams, Argo rods, ported heads, headers and ARP fastners plus the 112 and a Wolf controlling it all.

Max RPM 7,000.

If you wind an M90 to full boost at 4,000rpm you will over rev it at 6,000 and damage the teflon coating and flog the bearings out of it.

 

[striker]

Hey all,

first figure out how much boost you want low down (I asume MUCH), then figure out what rpm the eaton (expecially an M90) must spin at to get to this, then calculate at which rpm the eaton runs out of revs, and lay the turbo/rpm plot over that...... ohoohh, since you'll be running an M112, things might be better though.
You're eaton will probably be the drawback at higher revs. and if the rev's don't ruin the coating, the temperature higher up in the range will probably take car of that.

nice set-up that would be Rod, a tad expensive though.

grtz Thomas

 

[LondonBenji]

The simution for 600HP had Ross pistons, Kelford cams, Argo rods, ported heads, headers and ARP fastners plus the 112 and a Wolf controlling it all.

Max RPM 7,000.

If you wind an M90 to full boost at 4,000rpm you will over rev it at 6,000 and damage the teflon coating and flog the bearings out of it.

What if you kept the stock pistons and rods and didn't bother with the ARP sexy bits. Do we reckon a stock (pre 95 it now seems) 1UZFE would be able to handle it? Would the stock ecu be able to handle it as well (isn't it limited by the amount of boost it could handle) or else use some sort of MegaJolt/Squirt add on/replacement?

Doing everything else do you reckon you could hit 600bhp? Think as cheap as possible V8 supercharged power...(without going LS of course)

 

[striker]

600 would be doable perhaps but on what charger would you do that considering it needs to be cheap as you said, a single m112 can't provide enough air,
maybe twin M62's those do 14Krpm also (like M45's), mercedes is possible donor expensive though.

a lot of mapping to keep a stock block in one piece. I thought Justin has over 600 on a stock engine, right?

grtz Thomas

 

[JustenGT8]

I'm well over 600BHP now on the stock internals Benji But with Rod's rod sale i'll be upgrading soon and can now aim for 1000BHP

Striker- temp should be OK i think. I'll keep my current FMIC so air from turbos will be cooled before entering SC, plus there's the water injection setup which i can also spray pre SC to help with temp control? and finally there's the M112's own twin a/w ICs. I was going to place the WI nozzle post Sc ICs as i didn't want any condensing in the core but if you reckon it'll help keep the rotors alive then maybe pre is a good idea?

Boost wise i'd be aiming for around 15psi as soon as i can get it realistically 12psi would be more then enough from the SC though, especially if it can deliver than from say 2000rpm

 

[Zuffen]

Justen,

I did some calculaions on the M112 and 15lb was as high as I could get it to go without over-revving the blower.

When you hit 1,000bhp I want to see it in action. That would be totally awsome. I'd drive down to Wakefield to see it.