Ferrari's 4.3liter V8 doubles the 1uz-fe hp output NA..

[jibbby]

It is apparent the 500 hp that is naturally aspired in this 4.3L Farrari motor is derived from the high rev limit in the motor and not necessarly the liter size...

With a high reving motor what else is compromised other then the longevity of the motor? I understand more heat and friction is created with the big rpm band which deteriotes the motor quicker then the lower reving motors... I am wondering if bottom end power is compromised when building a high reving motor?

What would it take to build up a high reving 1uz-fe motor that could potentially make 9000rpms? Is it even possible?

Lots of question as I revisit this thread...Anyone?

 

[rms]

What would it take to build up a high reving 1uz-fe motor that could potentially make 9000rpms? Is it even possible?

Jibby,
It is possible but it is not cost effective.
A bit like the Rolls Royce salesman - 'if you have to ask how much, you can't afford it'.

 

[bango]

You would have to ask yourself..is a 9000 rpm + motor going to suit your needs..is it an every day motor or weekend fanging machine..? With the 4.3 litre Ferrari..how ofter does it have to be "serviced"..? I heard that every 5 k It has to have a service..new timing belts etc..Like ems said..can you afford the money and the time for a 9000 rpm rever..?
On another note..I had a look at a SB2 (Chevy /nascar) motor..this thing revs 9500 rpm..!makes 800+ HP NA..! FFS..with pushrods..!!!!
Can get one for $15-18 K...lol..like the Song.."Its all in the way that you use it".....

 

[rms]

bango,
A SBC/Nascar engine or V8 Supercar engine will cost around $80/$100k.
They have a service life of around 1500/2000klm. At rebuild time the only parts used again are the block and head castings, the crank MAY be used for 2 rebuilds.
Makes a Ferrari seem cheap!

BTW - our 4000cc N/A 1uz makes 534bhp at 8400rpm, 338lb/ft at 7800rpm.
Minimum 300lb/ft from 5900 to 9000 rpm.
The only Toyota parts left are the block,crank and head castings.

 

[cribbj]

Erol, knowing the hazards of generalising, still do you think it would be fair to say that a 7K RPM 1UZ in NA trim costs "X", while a 1UZ built to rev to 8K with confidence, and live on the street, would be around double that, and a 9K RPM 1UZ would be around double that again?

 

[jibbby]

It's a shame that the higher reving motors really burn out and break down fast... As RMS stated, it's just not practical or cost effecient unless your sponsored, track driven, etc...

That's amazing to think that RMS made 534bhp on a 4.0 liter built N/A 1uz-fe motor at 8400rpm...WOW!! That puts the impressive 4.3L Ferrari motor to shame... I am sure that wasn't pump gas RMS was using when that built 1uz-fe was dyno'd...Still that's extremely impressive RMS....

I wonder just how long that motor will last? Reving 8400rpms I am sure things are getting heated and shaken up a bit...

 

[jibbby]

So basically for engine longevity -

Lower reving motors lasts the longest...Diesel motors are good example of that...

Higher reving motors burn out fast and cost way more.... Ferrari 430 is a good example of that...


So boost is the way to go in combination with the lowing reving motors if you want a motor and most trannies to last...

 

[Thermactor]

Curious, Since dreams can become reality every now and then - If you guys had a choice of a any free motor sitting under the hood of your current ride what would you choose?

Without a doubt, a Toyota 3A-C with a bad carburetor. :yup:

 

[bango]

bango,
A SBC/Nascar engine or V8 Supercar engine will cost around $80/$100k.
They have a service life of around 1500/2000klm. At rebuild time the only parts used again are the block and head castings, the crank MAY be used for 2 rebuilds.
Makes a Ferrari seem cheap!

BTW - our 4000cc N/A 1uz makes 534bhp at 8400rpm, 338lb/ft at 7800rpm.
Minimum 300lb/ft from 5900 to 9000 rpm.
The only Toyota parts left are the block,crank and head castings.

Yeah..thats what they cost when built for/by Nascars builders..I was just looking at one on ebay..with the price tag of $18 k..Yes..big bux for big performance..Thats why the 1iz is adream really..what a great motor.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-...ryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[rms]

John,
As a general approach your cost estimates are somewhere around the money.

Talking of Ferrari's, yesterday I was looking at a 1986 1.5ltr F1 twin turbo V6 Ferrari engine which is apart for rebuild.
These engines made 860bhp on race boost and over 1000bhp on qualfying boost.

The owner has both the Alboreto and Bergher team cars. When talking costs with these things you are talking telephone numbers !

I have to make a set of suspension links in case he knocks a corner off.

Also being assembled was a new 3ltr N/A F1 Repco-Brabham V8.

 

[cribbj]

Drool......
:smileeek:

 

[1UZ-HZ]

John,
Also being assembled was a new 3ltr N/A F1 Repco-Brabham V8.

Holy Crap!! I love that engine!

 

[jibbby]

Does anyone have any pics of these unbelievable Ferrari motors that RMS is talking about?

Did I read that right :scratchchin: - A 1.5 liter F1 twin turbo V6 Ferrari motor that's making 1000bhp? The turbo's must be larger then the motor itself if that is the case...WOW!!!

 

[striker]

Not to be a complete wiseass or something,

What's the fuss about, 450hp from 4300cc @9krpm at nowadays engineering?

pff take a 1989 Honda CBR600

85hp @ 598cc

so what if Honda where to that engineering and put that in a 4300cc flatplane V8..... voila 611hp,
guys we're talking late 80's technology here carbs and all.... yamaha FZR1000 also does 600+ on frari displacement....
and I know these engines are VERY relaiable, 200.000km + for the honda and 140600km+ for the old EXUP, and both about 1500rpms Higher than the frari in question.

Now look a little further and go with bikes of this age just as frari
nice example Yamaha YZF R6 redlines at 17500rpm makes its top power at 14500 so yes it's revved like hell by everyone who drives it.
top powwer 127hp from just 599cc's
that would make 911hp in frari displacement..........

so it looks quite good but they're able to go a lot further. and yes the yamaha engine proves relaible, some people I know have covered 20.000kms allready without problems.

zuffen has a strong point of people without respect for engines vs reliablilty. which is sadly probably the case.

Emmisions is quite simple, upgrade the compressor which puts air into the exhaust manifold and hey presto clean emissions NOT! but still allowed in europe.

not that I'm not impressed with the engines they produce, but the prices for such are mostly based on the badge that it carries.

I'll have a suzuki based "powertec" over the frari one any time, but in a car of my choice.... (read Light)

Grtz Thomas

I continuously mistype ferrari so that's why is says, frari

 

[striker]

Owh ps,

Not a frari F1 Turbo but here's a techi drawing and piccies of BMW's / Megatron's 1499cc 1000+hp turbo era F1 engine.

ps look at the size of rods in the drawing.....







Renault Gordini also had V6 turbo's in F1 btw

Grtz Thomas

 

[striker]

found specs I knew had the link somewhere.

1300hp @5.5boost



grtz Thomas

 

[jibbby]

Stiker nice pics...

However I am not so sure you can really compare motor cycles to cars... Motor cycle motors rev off the rpm scale.. Again, you get a motor that can rev to 10,000 rpms or so I gaurantee it will show some impressive power levels for it's liter size... Again, those motor cycle engines have a life expectancy of what 30,000 miles or so as well...

 

[striker]

Hey Jibby,

I think you can very well do that in the case of frari midship supercar and for instance a honda cbr900rr fireblade engine.

your points are All true but, fact remains that the MC engines of this time are all factory guarantied for at least 50K km's and will be going strong at twice that amount. with an amount of abuse that would rip a frari engine to bits in a week and some of them do TWICE the revs as the frari engines.

I was just pointing out that frari didn't produce anything out of this world, the engines very nice and have some good thought behind them, but I don't think if Honda or toyota where to make a production engine like this they would be happy with rebuild intervalls of 50k km they couldn't even sell it I think. honda allready showed they can pull it off with the K20a and F20b engines high revving 120hp per liter toyota also with the 4 cylinder G series engines high revving and 100hp+ per liter.

There's one difference which might have a very bad effect on relaiability of which I can't say anything constructive.
frari builds Flat plane V8's whereas the rest of the production world builds crossplane's which are beter balanced by nature. maybe Erol can say something about this?

Ps I don't really see any difference in desinging a high revving NA bike engine and a high revving car engine. the theory is the same the ways are the same only the bike engine's a lot smaller, frari only has one thing to take into acount, everybody including types like paris hilton should be able to drive one...... says enough really.

Grtz Thomas

 

[jibbby]

Stirker, that's funny because I owned a Honda CBR900rr for about two years and loved that bike.. I found that bike to be one of the smoothest, nicest rice burners out their....A little slow in comparison to other 900cc and 1100cc street bikes but still a favorite bike to ride for me...Something about Honda engineering that is just a little bit better and smoother then the rest of the bunch... BMW and Ducatti bikes also have their positives...

Question - What makes these bike motors rev so much higher safely then the larger performance car motors? It's not even close, does the smaller sized bike motors have an advantage in some way to allow a motor and internal engine parts to turn faster without failure? It always seems to me the smaller the motor the faster it is engineered to turn... Never understood the reason and logic behind that? Why can't large motors turn as fast as the smaller ones?

Is it the gravity force and weight of the internal moving parts between two sized motors that makes the difference?

 

[striker]

only one word.

WEIGHT.

in a few words, combined weight of all moving parts within the engine.

why do you think F1 engineers take so much effort to make pistons and rods as light as possible?

the less weight that goes up and down the easier it is stopping and accerlerating it, which is exactly what rotating the crank does. ie the higher the revs the light the parts must be.

look at a 4age 20v piston once compared to 1uz one. notice the difference?

grtz Thomas