Ethanol and Methanol Q's

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Cobolt

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Messages
122
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Ehm.. SAAB get plenty of POWER out of their E100 engine that isn´t even released yet.. only a conceptcar, not in production.. so how can you discuss that single cars mileage?

Saab themselfs claim 10% better mileage for their E100 car.. but compared to what?? Their E85 cars are known for their Terrible mileage here in Sweden where heaps of them are sold and most are runniing them on petrol instead because of better economy and yes, we have a E85 price that makes other E85 cars run as cheap on E85 as on petrol because the price of E85 is set so that it should be economically equal to run E85 and petrol. To make ppl use E85 the state gives wery generous benefits like free parking, less taxes and so on if you can prove that you have run your car on E85 for a certain % of the miles per year.
 

Cobolt

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122
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I guess that works too.

But if an engine is tuned properly couldn't it return the same or better mileage then a comparable petrol engine?

Unfortunatley that´s totally impossible because petrol contains more energy per unit of measurement (weight/volume).

If we´re talking $/mile it´s another story IF you can get E100 cheap enough.
 

Anaema

New Member
Messages
561
Location
AZ
Unfortunatley that´s totally impossible because petrol contains more energy per unit of measurement (weight/volume).

If we´re talking $/mile it´s another story IF you can get E100 cheap enough.

that may be true, but with adequate technology it could be done. say with something like a controlled standing wave in the cylinder. or some other fanciful method of injection.
 

Cobolt

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122
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
that may be true, but with adequate technology it could be done. say with something like a controlled standing wave in the cylinder. or some other fanciful method of injection.

What characteristics of the fuels in question would make that possible with alcohol but not with petrol?

Way less btu per unit and thermal efficiency with alcohol is quite a big drawback to compensate for if mpg is the method of comparison.

Personally I love alcohol, but only as a race fuel.. the 400 horsepower per litre of enginevolume on pump gas (E85) is pretty cool, but we don´t have any concerns what so ever about mpg when we´re building those engines and we have a nice little whirlpool in the gastank... ;)
 

Anaema

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561
Location
AZ
What characteristics of the fuels in question would make that possible with alcohol but not with petrol?

Way less btu per unit and thermal efficiency with alcohol is quite a big drawback to compensate for if mpg is the method of comparison.

Personally I love alcohol, but only as a race fuel.. the 400 horsepower per litre of enginevolume on pump gas (E85) is pretty cool, but we don´t have any concerns what so ever about mpg when we´re building those engines and we have a nice little whirlpool in the gastank... ;)

its not that alcohol has any better properties that allow it better fuel mileage, its just that it has a much higher octane rating and much better evaporation cooling(there is a technical term for this, but i dont know it). and i dont really know if a controlled standing wave would improve fuel mileage, as its only a rather nice theory of mine.

the lower BTU only really matters if you are talking fuel mileage, which you are. but it can be overcome with the right technology.

we(as in the world governments and corporations) have the resources to make alcohols a viable replacement for gasoline. but what we dont have is a large scale research project to make it happen.
 

Cobolt

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122
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
its not that alcohol has any better properties that allow it better fuel mileage, its just that it has a much higher octane rating and much better evaporation cooling(there is a technical term for this, but i dont know it). and i dont really know if a controlled standing wave would improve fuel mileage, as its only a rather nice theory of mine.

the lower BTU only really matters if you are talking fuel mileage, which you are. but it can be overcome with the right technology.

we(as in the world governments and corporations) have the resources to make alcohols a viable replacement for gasoline. but what we dont have is a large scale research project to make it happen.

The term is "latent heat of evaporation" and that is also what gives Alcohol less thermal efficiency. When we are talking mpg we are talking about low engineloads and alcohol with a high latent heat of evaporation is wery good for high loads but therefore quite crappy in low load conditons because the engergy used to make the fuel evaporate is what should move the car forward instead, add that alcohol itself has a low energy content (btu) and we can see that alcohol is a fuel that is not suited for low load applications.

Put alcohol in an ideal condition instead, a small turbocharged engine that will operate in high load conditions, like driving a generator or as extra powerplant in a hybrid car on full loads where the octane and the cooling propertys can be fully used, then we are talking about something that could work out wery well - that´s how we use the alcohol in our racecars with wery good results because alcohol is wery suited for full load conditions.
 

Anaema

New Member
Messages
561
Location
AZ
something i have been wondering for the past hour or six is: can you burn a short chain sugar as fuel? nothing so long as Sucrose or Glucose, but something with say, 4 carbons.

also, if Ethanol has roughly 70% the energy content of gasoline, then wouldnt a longer chain alcohol have more energy than gasoline.

for an example: gasoline is a mixture of Octane and Heptane(and maybe Hexane). all of which are alkanes with carbon chain lengths of 8, 7, and 6 respectively. Ethanol is only a 2 chain alcohol, and it has 70% the energy gasoline does, even though its a MUCH smaller chemical.

so, it stand to reason that an alcohol with more carbons will have a much higher energy content than gasoline. now understand, i am only theorizing this with the help of high school chemistry, and i havent learned the exact chemical formula for alcohols yet.
 

Toysrme

Member
Messages
838
If a material can oxidize, it can be made to combust.
You simply need the correct conditions for it to happen. Compression, the correct amount of oxygen (lower combustion & upper combustion limits), and a source of ignition (be it compression, spark, a pre-explosion, etc).
I saw in a book one time a guy ran an old v8 on coal dust. I've seen another run off flour.


Maintenance VS performance VS cost VS convienance. Gas is currently almost impossible to beat here. If you went to brazil you could say the same for the alcohol fuels, but this isn't brazil lol!
 

Toysrme

Member
Messages
838
capn - you completely mis-read what I was getting at on the saab engine. I'm saying it's not some awesome engine that's got completely new concepts in it. I simply pointed out that everything in that engine ahs been done before, and could have easily been achived by saab's previous engine family.








Convienance is a big thing too. There are more race grade fuel pumps in Alabama than there are E85... Let that settle in lol! And let's say you get 10% better mileage. You're still going to consume no less than 30% more fuel in the process. So now I've got to go fill-up twice a week+.
 

Anaema

New Member
Messages
561
Location
AZ
If a material can oxidize, it can be made to combust.
You simply need the correct conditions for it to happen. Compression, the correct amount of oxygen (lower combustion & upper combustion limits), and a source of ignition (be it compression, spark, a pre-explosion, etc).
I saw in a book one time a guy ran an old v8 on coal dust. I've seen another run off flour.

ive heard about the coal dust. the first diesel engine patented by Diesel ran on coal dust injected into the cylinder by compressed air.
 

capn

New Member
Messages
58
Location
Charlotte NC, USA
capn - you completely mis-read what I was getting at on the saab engine. I'm saying it's not some awesome engine that's got completely new concepts in it. I simply pointed out that everything in that engine ahs been done before, and could have easily been achived by saab's previous engine family.

Convienance is a big thing too. There are more race grade fuel pumps in Alabama than there are E85... Let that settle in lol! And let's say you get 10% better mileage. You're still going to consume no less than 30% more fuel in the process. So now I've got to go fill-up twice a week+.


No I completely understand what you are saying I just must have come off a bit excentric when I was saying "some ungodly" mpg. Also I was wondering in detail about the engines, because as previously stated static compression is nothin compared to dynamic. I am sure there is no publicly available specs on the engine as of yet; but it would be good to find out.
 

XR8tt

Active Member
Messages
2,761
Location
Sydney Australia
Stoic air/fuel ratio

Gasoline 14.6
Ethyl t-Butyl Ether 12.1
Amyl Methyl Ether 12.1
Toluene 13.5
Methyl t-Butil Ether 11.7
Diisopropyl Ether 12.1
Butyl Alcohol 11.1
Isopropanol 10.4
Methanol with cosolvent 8.8 0.
Ethanol 9.0
Methanol 6.4

You can see why you need an upgraded fuel system when converting ....
 

HoBi

New Member
Messages
8
Location
Melb, Aust
Hi Guys,

Has anyone been using the SHell V-Power racing petrol in their 1UZ's as yet.. especially the supercharged guys. When I throw one into my e36 beemer, I was planing on running this with an aftermarket computer to exploit the high octane and low resistance to detonation.

MoTeC tested the fuel and gave it the thumbs up. I have been talking to my tuner aswell and he seems to think its a goer as well.

link to MoTeC fuel test:
http://www.motec.com.au/fueltest/index.htm

it even out performed AVGAS! :bigeyes:
 

Cobolt

New Member
Messages
122
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Just about everyone here in Sweden who are using gasonline are using Shell V-power, it is a very fine fuel and the higher octane is really working!

More and more are going for E85 though, as it outperforms V-Power by far.
 

HoBi

New Member
Messages
8
Location
Melb, Aust
Wow! what a great read... It seems like all the (unfounded) rubbish I have been feed here in Australia seems to be a bit of scare mongering.

It is interesting that almost all people I talk to say not to use ethanol based fuel in Euros as it damages this and that.. but Europeans are using it in there cars (in even higher percentages than what we can Legally get here! our max is 10% at the pump) Very interesting.

Even more inclined to run it in mycar once it gets finished.. just to prove to nay-sayers down here that it is good stuff.

Tune it up and your laughing.

The more i delve into this, the more postives come out of it. It's renewable and creates less hydrocarbons, so good for the planet too. I feel like going outside and hugging a tree.. lol
 

ash

New Member
Messages
407
Location
qld
doesn't methanol contain something like 70% water? Thats why it cools so well when due to the evaporation rate when a heat source is applied ie combustion chamber. And thats why you have to inject some much more than normal gasoline because it has a lower energy mass.

sorry for the late post, but just a correction..
methanol should be 100% or near as dam close to it
eg 99%
any water will "lean out " the fuel system ( ie bad)

methanol has less energy per gram or Millilitre than petrol / gas
thats why the extra fuel is requred..
the extra fuel cools the intake air , cyl head, etc

"old" methanol can give funny spark plug readings, and i'll try get some pictures when i get home.. leaves a honey colour on plug
 

ash

New Member
Messages
407
Location
qld
ill try get some notes i wrote on turbo methanol engines i wrote last year while testing..
droplet size, fuel rate / air fuel ratio , and effects of this fuel rate...
quite interesting really...:)
 
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