Anyone Seen These, Remote Turbo's

[storm_rider_]

If They work as good as they say then it would get around alot of the problems with manifolds and stuff. Be probably easy to plum a twin charge system to where you have two turbo's at the back a eaton/lysom supercharger on the engine.

I just can't see it working that well unless everything is sized perfectly, wouldn't the primaries and the secondaries of the exhaust have to be pretty small to keep the exhaust flow up to?? You'd expect there to be quite a bit of lag but apparently not.

http://ststurbo.com

 

[Toysrme]

There are several companies selling them. Provided the copmressor & turbine is correctly chosen for the engine & powerband desired. They work just fine. You're only looking at what? Another 5 feet of pipe compaired to a single turbo V engine to begin with once you merge the pipes.
I've been around in an STS toyota b4. It's not bad. In my opinion whatever turbine housing they were using on what I'ev riven. They need to choke it down another step, but whatever.


Spool time is a small amount higher, but they're not laggy to drive around.


It's no different than anything else. Too many people think just because corky bell said heat is important 30 years ago doesn't mean he was right all the time. Heat is neglidgeable to the shear amount of exhaust flowing in the exhaust.
I'm not ashamed to say the guy probably knew more than I do, but I'm not ashamed to say na dude... You're book sucks b/c it's far too general, and some things in it are just flat wrong in practice instead of in a lab.

 

[Toysrme]

The problem with them is the oiling system. You can either install an oil scavange pump to push the oil back to the engine, or you can install a pump & give the turbo it's own oil loop. Which itself would be difficult. Unless you just made a lucky guess on cooler size, you'd be monitoring cooler temps until you found one big enough to work in the space provided. Then you have to deal with figuring out how big of a sump & how much oil flow from a pump you need to lubricate the bearings, without running the pump dry, or pumping your oil so fast you wind up with dry spurts.

 

[cribbj]

Too many people think just because corky bell said heat is important 30 years ago doesn't mean he was right all the time. Heat is neglidgeable to the shear amount of exhaust flowing in the exhaust.
I'm not ashamed to say the guy probably knew more than I do, but I'm not ashamed to say na dude... You're book sucks b/c it's far too general, and some things in it are just flat wrong in practice instead of in a lab.

Mmmm Toysrme, it's not just Corky saying this. Check out the 2nd law of thermodynamics for an isentropic process. The change in enthalpy from the exhaust heat going into the turbine, then leaving the turbine means a good amount of the energy spinning the turbine comes from the heat, not just the exhaust flow.

If you can prove the 2nd law of thermodynamics wrong in practice, you'll be the first. There's lots of steam and gas turbines out in industry that depend on it being right.

 

[Anaema]

its not really a new concept. ive seen one used on a TV show. Horespower TV i think, on an older episode.

 

[Toysrme]

The problem is that themodynamics are great. But when you have 400*F drops in exhaust temperatures on just a normal setup, and 800*F+ drops in "remote" setups agaisnt manifold ones. And yet you can still spool the turbo up jsut fine.
It's a 1% differance against 99% of everything else.

To explain that another way. It's like putting strut tower braces in already stiff chassies. Sure they do something constructive if they're worth anything, but any other possible thing you could do would most likely be money better spent as far as what you get out of it.

 

[rytherwr]

Got one

Yep...bought a system with upgraded turbo about a year ago from STS for my '03 Toyota Tundra 4.7. Just now breaking in my warmed up motor but after break-in, I will install the turbo system blowing into a TRD supercharger. Should be a fun ride.....)

By all accounts, the Squires Turbo System works very well.

Wayne

 

[Lextreme II]

The only problem i see from this system would be the failure of the oil pump. I know a Tundra owner with this system and his electrical oil pump fail and the whole truck smoke very bad. Other then that... it a pretty simple system and with ball bearing turbo it would be ok, but not great...

 

[cribbj]

The problem is that themodynamics are great. But when you have 400*F drops in exhaust temperatures on just a normal setup, and 800*F+ drops in "remote" setups agaisnt manifold ones. And yet you can still spool the turbo up jsut fine.
It's a 1% differance against 99% of everything else.

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you're trying to say, but I think you're missing an important point; the "total" energy extracted by the turbine from the exhaust stream is proportional "both" to the mass flowrate (deltaP) and to the change in temperature (deltaT) of the exhaust stream. In equation format this is:

Q=MCp(Ti - To)

Where:
Q = Energy in kW
M = Mass flow rate of exhaust gas
Cp = Coefficient of specific heat for the exhaust gas
Ti = Temperature(R) of the inlet gas to turbine
To = Temperature(R) of the outlet gas from turbine

The orifice equation for the mass flow rate is a little more complicated, but for sake of simplicity we can say it's proportional to the pressure drop across the turbine. This is the part that I think you were referring to as the 99% contribution, and the temperature drop was the 1%? Actually, as you can see from the equation, they work together.

We know it has to take "some" energy to compress the inlet air on the compressor side of the turbo, and just how much is defined by the equation above. If the compressor side is working really hard, at a high pressure ratio, there'll be a big deltaT and a big flowrate across the turbine. If it's not working too hard, there'll be a smaller deltaT and smaller flow rate (WG open?).

Sure, the further downstream the turbo is in the exhaust system (like in the STS system), the cooler the temps will be at the inlet, but the same principle applies. It doesn't matter if the inlet temp is 1600 degrees (R) and the outlet is 1200, or the inlet is 1000 and the outlet is 600, the same amount of energy has been extracted. Having said that, it's a lot easier to extract energy from hotter gas than cooler gas, so that's why most conventional turbos are located right at the manifolds.

 

[rytherwr]

John....you make my head hurt...) however, the bottom line is you say it correctly that the same percentage of energy is extracted as it relates to inlet/outlet tempature relationships.

 

[Toysrme]

Cribb What I am trying to say is that people swear up & down that heat is the flat out be-all end-all of spooling a turbine, and it is flat out not true. It plays less of an importance to anything else. Everything is related, and it does make a differance. But it is a small differance relative to the amount of flow present, the number of exhaust pulses, and the velocity it runs at.
(And yes. heat does play a role in that. The differance that I am saying compaired to anyone else is that I dont place heat as the be-all end-all of spooling a turbine.)


(Yeah we're saying the same thing btw)

 

[Pro]

see, the trouble with these arguments is that no one has a base reference.

what are we comparing here? nothing, that's what, because no one has put up a base reference.

yes, a GT35R will spool slower at the end of the exhaust cycle where gas has cooled and it's expansion has slowed, and will spool faster closer to the engine because the gas is hotter and expanding quicker - that's basic physics. no argument.

so why on earth would we put the same turbo at the front of the gas cycle as we would at the rear...? we wouldn't. we would fit a turbocharger with a smaller exhaust A/R to maximise spool on the cooler end of the gas cycle.

all this hype and shyte about turbo's having to be in the engine bay is bunkum if we are comparing apples and oranges, the apple being the start of the exhaust gas cycle and the orange being the end of the exhaust gas cycle.

change your figures to match the change in temps and re-check all your "real world testing" and "theory".

it's physics. learn it.

oil return for me is a bigger concern, but there are a multitude of industrial priming pumps available that would do the trcik just nicely.

 

[JustenGT8]

Toysrme, you can't separate the 'flow' from the 'heat' or more importantly the exhaust gas energy as they are proportional as Cribbs nicely explains. You are effectively talking about the same thing. The reason these remote systems work is that there is still enough energy in the exhaust gas (in the form of heat) that the weanie turbos they use can still extract enough from it to work OK.

To say heat isn't the primary driver is just plain wrong, heat IS the energy source...what do you think combustion produces?

Mods to keep the heat in the exhaust pre turbo have very clear performance gains. Ceramic coat and wrap your exhaust manifold and i will guarantee you'll see improvement to spool and outright hp gains. Same goes with increasing the delta(T) across the turbine by using a larger exhaust. An increasingly larger dump will produce a proportional increase in hp...until you max the potential delta of your system. Prob for most cars is other constraints prevent the optimum dump size being used.

The surprise expressed that these remote systems work is because people don't understand how much energy the exhaust gas does contain when the engine is under load....they only see a relatively cool exhaust at idle. At load my exhuast outlet will melt the paint on the rear beaver panel no probs.

These remote system work but aren't within a bull's roar of a well set up conventional system......obviously niche market for them but don't expect to see a genuine competition car run one any time soon