powerglide adaptor

[prosa63]

Hi guys any body out there interested in an adapter for a powerglide to the 1uzfe original bell housing?

I have had a sample made and tried it. It works perfectly.

Anybody else want one?

 

[Lextreme II]

Do u have any TH400 adaptor and would the Powerglide and the TH400 interchangeable?

 

[cowboy bebop]

Maybe, but what tools were used in measurement? As in how did you arrive at your true center, 0 point, and horizontal plane for the motor and tranny? How dead on accurate is it, and is the accuracy documented?

THanks man,

Eric

 

[prosa63]

first only have powerglide adapter.

second I gave an 1uzfe engine, 6 cylinder powerglide (with removable bellhousind)and a 1uzfe bellhousing to a machine shop which then wrote the program and the adaptor was machined on a CNC mill.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Not to pester, but would it be ok to ask how the machine shop measured the bolt hole angles, and all of the other values? Mainly what is the documented accuracy, and what tools they used to arrive there? It's a safety concern that many shops will use calipers to measure the bolt hole distance, and unfortuntely it doesn't give a tight tolerence. In measuring items like bellhousings, and motor bolt patterns in free space with any accuracy, specialized equipment from an outside source must be called in. If they only made a template with a tin sheet using a punch, then measured with calipers, then the accuracy can not be guaranteed.

On the subject of adapter plates, we've learned a lot. We've also taken into consideration that any misalignment, while seemingly small at idle, will cause catastrophic destruction at 8000 rpm. By which I mean parts coming loose and taking legs with it. With adpater plates, while you can make it fit, that doesn't mean it's right. It's either documented dead nuts right, or it's dead wrong.

I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on you by asking these things, but anyone who is contemplating an adapter plate system should not hesitate to ask the tough questions. Finding out the exact method the machine shop used to derived their figures, and values would be good information for everyone to have.

Thanks prosa63,

Eric

 

[Lextreme II]

Eric,

You are making an adapter for the V16. So maybe, but what tools were used in measurement? As in how did you arrive at your true center, 0 point, and horizontal plane for the motor and tranny? How dead on accurate is it, and is the accuracy documented?

As for me, I use torque coverter as a guide. The TC will take care of the left and right alignment and the plate will take care of the distant. Assuming the mounting surface is perpendicular to the flexplate and lets also assume the tranny would be the same. I think my method will be ok even i dont have those fancy laser guided 0 center, but should be ok.

 

[cowboy bebop]

There is only one real way to arrive at the horizonal plane, zero point, and true center. Without advertising, I will say that we used an outside company that uses a handheld laser scanner to arrive at the true points. The information is transfered directly a laptop, then uploaded to the 3D modeling software. The software then converts the information to G-code, and sent directly to the mill. All in all, contracting the folks to come out with the laser sweeper costs around $5000.00 plus the cost of the machining and materials, but accuracy is that important.

If there is the slightest misalignment, from the get go, the misalignment will only get more and more serious as the rpms's rise, growing exponentially throughout the range. Eventually, the flexplate, the TQ Converter, ect may vibrate itself apart and cause life threatening damage. Tranny pieces have a tendency to come through the floor pan and sever legs, usually killing the driver.

The way to go about these things is to check and recheck your accuracy. We have accuracy documented to .0005". Not only that, the mill that the machine shop uses should have up to date calibrations. Machines often get out of tolerance over an longer distance. Our machines were calibrated recently to .0001" over 25 inches of travel.

I think it's a great idea to produce these adapters, but please, please don't just lay a stencil over the bolt pattern and go from there. It may be ok, but chances are that it's not. If you do it right from the first step, you'll have a guaranted proper fit, every time.

Thanks Lex,

Eric

 

[Zuffen]

Making an adaptor sounds very difficult.

How did they make them in the 70's before they had laser measuring equipment and CNC machines.

Did they just guess or use alternative measuring tools and engineering skills we don't seem to have nowadays.

How did GM/Ford etc get their bellhousings to bolt up in the right place?

 

[cowboy bebop]

We're not in the 70's, and we no one here has the complete resources of any major auto manufacturer. With todays modern equipment, there's no reason to have to stencil with flat sheet & punch, or hand measure ANY adapter plate.

Something to remember that no one seems to talk about, but something we took into serious consideration. When you sell an product like an adapter plate, you open yourself up to liability. A catastrophic failure due to negligence in manufacturing can be an ugly situation. Imagine being sued for wrongful death, and you're on the witness stand. The question is if you did or did not take every precaution and make every effort to ensure your product was accurate. It'd be sad if the only answer was, "Naw man, we eyeballed it..."

That's why I ask how are these things that pop up now and then are measured, and that's we believe that good enough, is just not good enough.

Thanks Zuffen,

Eric

 

[Lextreme II]

The laser guided alignment is a wonderful thing. However, this luxury is not available everywhere or the expense getting it done. However, as for me (I dont even know how to use AutoCAD) pencil and paper type of guy. I would need to use different method. The picture below would be my assumptions:

1. The flexplate or the center of the crank would be perpendicular to the mounting portion of the block

2. The transmission mounting portion would be perpendicular with the input spline shaft

If X and Y are aligned via the torque converter, therefore the Z can be easily be found. Yes, this is a very primative method. However, I know and everyone know its not the best method.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Just be careful Dave, and take your time with it. Something like this is a functional load bearing part, so the measurements are either right or or they're wrong.

Thanks man,

Eric

 

[Zuffen]

Eric,

I understand if you line bore a block the dowell pins need altering to keep the crank centered and 10thou" is the tolerance most OEM manufacturers use on transmission/engine alignment so things are tight.

What I don't get, is did you really spend US$5,000.00 to have the V160 adaptor plate laid out for the CNC machine to do its bit? Especially considering you sell price!

I was young (and present) when the first 200MPH pass was made in Australia and I'm damned sure they didn't use the laser to align the transmission when they made their adaptor. This was probably before you were born.

To cut to the chase I think many thousands of transmission adaptors have been made over the years (without killing many thousands of drivers/passengers) to tell me you are making some wild claims.

Scary posts are there to discourage true pathfinders from finding a path.

 

[Lextreme II]

All in all, contracting the folks to come out with the laser sweeper costs around $5000.00 plus the cost of the machining and materials, but accuracy is that important.

Sounds like an expensive process.

Laser Sweeper $5000
Machining about $500 for one off
Material about $200

So you spent almost $6,000 just for this plate? Wow... you are rich man....

 

[prosa63]

Bolt hole angles? Bolt hole distance?

Eric to answer most of your questions i will start with questions.

Have you ever seen a 6 cylinder powerglide which has detachable bell housing?

Have you seen a 1uzfe bell housing removed from the transmittion?

Why will you use the bolt holes to line up anything any way?

Eric the Australian 6 cylinder powerglide has the front of the oil pump protruding past the case. When the bell housing is inspected you will find a lip that locates it on the pump. So all the bolts do is hold the bell housing to the Trans so the bolts do not locate the bell housing.

Now the 1uzfe bell housing does exactly the same. The bell housing locates on the out side of the oil pump the bolts only hold it all together.

Now how can you go wrong front here.

The prototype was drawn up on turbo cad. Machined on a CNC mill.

Now Eric i took the adapter and my micrometer and guess what no difference around the adapter at any point .why no human error involved. I will post more once i have all the info from the machine shop but to me all i can say is if you have two circles with a common centre how can you go wrong?bolt holes come last.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Eric,

I understand if you line bore a block the dowell pins need altering to keep the crank centered and 10thou" is the tolerance most OEM manufacturers use on transmission/engine alignment so things are tight.{/quote]

Aftermarket adapter should be that tight, and be documented to be that tight

What I don't get, is did you really spend US$5,000.00 to have the V160 adaptor plate laid out for the CNC machine to do its bit? Especially considering you sell price!

My selling price is what the market dictates. The price is double now to help recoup some of the money I've lost in the project. We made many copies to help overcome the massive costs involved.

I was young (and present) when the first 200MPH pass was made in Australia and I'm damned sure they didn't use the laser to align the transmission when they made their adaptor. This was probably before you were born.

To cut to the chase I think many thousands of transmission adaptors have been made over the years (without killing many thousands of drivers/passengers) to tell me you are making some wild claims.

There's nothing wild about what I say. Have you ever had a clutch blow out of the sides of the car? Have you ever had a faulty install, or faulty equipment detroy everything withing 3 cubic feet? I have. 714rwhp, 8000rpm, strapped to a dyno, bolts through the bellhousing like bullets, and bellhousing pieces flying out of all sides. You yourself are the largest proponent of proven products on this board, and now you're say that "good enough" is good enough?

Scary posts are there to discourage true pathfinders from finding a path.

Making it RIGHT the first time IS the path.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Sounds like an expensive process.

Laser Sweeper $5000
Machining about $500 for one off
Material about $200

So you spent almost $6,000 just for this plate? Wow... you are rich man....

I lost a lot of money in the process. Contracting the company with the laser sweeper doesn't cost 5K, but it's 4K and some change. By the time their expenses are taken care of, it's around 5K. It's just what's needed to get the piece measured exact.

 

[cowboy bebop]

Bolt hole angles? Bolt hole distance?

Eric to answer most of your questions i will start with questions.

Have you ever seen a 6 cylinder powerglide which has detachable bell housing?

Have you seen a 1uzfe bell housing removed from the transmittion?

Why will you use the bolt holes to line up anything any way?

Eric the Australian 6 cylinder powerglide has the front of the oil pump protruding past the case. When the bell housing is inspected you will find a lip that locates it on the pump. So all the bolts do is hold the bell housing to the Trans so the bolts do not locate the bell housing.

Now the 1uzfe bell housing does exactly the same. The bell housing locates on the out side of the oil pump the bolts only hold it all together.

Now how can you go wrong front here.

The prototype was drawn up on turbo cad. Machined on a CNC mill.

Now Eric i took the adapter and my micrometer and guess what no difference around the adapter at any point .why no human error involved. I will post more once i have all the info from the machine shop but to me all i can say is if you have two circles with a common centre how can you go wrong?bolt holes come last.

It sounds like you have it all together, man. It's the pins that target the motor and tranny, and I can uderstand now that you see that too. You're absolutely right that bolt holes have nothing to do with targeting. : ) Post pics when you can

Thanks again,

Eric

 

[Lextreme II]

My selling price is what the market dictates. The price is double now to help recoup some of the money I've lost in the project. We made many copies to help overcome the massive costs involved.

So to do the math, you initial cost is about $4,000 and you are selling the first 20 sets at $380 each. I would assume for production (30 pieces) would cost you about $175-$250 each. If you are selling it at $380 each. You will profiting about $130 each. To produce 30 pieces it would cost you about $7,500 plus the initial R&D ($5,000). So you put in total of $12,500, but yet you only getting $7,600 for now. So from you are loosing $4,900. The second batch you are selling at $750 and you will be profiting $500 each. Then you need to sell additional 10 more pieces to recovery your investment. As stated you are selling at the market price? What is the market price for the adapter? For the 10 adapters you might not see the money coming back for the next 2 years or so. Honestly, if you really spent that kind of money as u stated, I really think u made a bad investment.

I was watching Rod Millen's IS430 project. They did the samething with the 3UZFE with V160 6 speed tranny. They didnot use the laser guided alignment or all those fancy tools. They did it without it. I hope you are not using fear tactics to scare off beginners.

 

[The Flea]

I'd be interested in the PG adapter since I want to drag only. Really. PM me or something. I have the only Dellow C4 in the western hemisphere and would consider going to PG if the adapter is nice.

 

[Lextech]

Prosa63 I see you are in Adelaide, but I don't know where on the planet that is. Would the bellhousing on the Powerglide you have be the same as the standard Chevy bolt pattern I am familiar with in the U.S. This may seem like a strange question but, Now that the internet has opened up my world I see many products from companies that I have known all of my life that make completely different products in other countries. How would a person purchase this adapter?