Gone COP, runs good....but.........

[kc95sc400]

........I have a pretty bad miss between 2800-3000 rpm. Anything above or below is fine.

Adaptronic e420c ECU.
Wasted spark
AEM 30-2820 http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/productdocs/manual30-2820TwinFire.pdf
Accel Ford super coils
BKR7E plugs gapped to .035

Wired in as per the attached picture

Any advice welcome. Other than the very small RPM window runs great.

 

[Bushwhacker]

Dead spot in the TPS?

 

[kc95sc400]

Dead spot in the TPS?

No, I don't think so. I took a few logs and everything looks fine, can't even tell it's missing looking at it.

I can hold just enough throttle position to accelerate, say in second gear, and as soon as it gets to about 2800 rpm it starts missing. Once I get a little past 3000 rpm it goes away. Without changing anything else.

It almost feels like it's out of time for a moment or there is a fuel / ignition cut. I swear it back fired out the intake once or twice.

The coil boots are a real tight fit down in the holes but I don't have anything holding them down and the packs themselves are probably moving around a bit. I wonder if there is some sort of harmonic vibration thing going on at that RPM affecting the coils....

Don't know, stumped. I checked resistance on all the coils and they are good. Put new plugs in it and have played around with a few settings on the AEM box and in the ECU and nothing has helped. Tried adding a bunch of fuel and still does it.

Going to take a close look at the cam / crank sensors later. Make sure all the pulleys are good and tight.

 

[cribbj]

KC, I don't know if you've been running this setup successfully and it "just" developed a miss, or whether you've just fired it up for the 1st time, but I had issues with AEM's 2820 box when I tried it on the Ferrari, similar to what you're describing, although my miss was around 5000 to 5500.

It was a noticeable "stumble" during acceleration after the engine was warm. Wouldn't do it when cold, however. I was running the 12 cylinder on waste spark and only using 3 channels per side on the 2820. Had it wired correctly, and tried the coils both in parallel and in series with no change. Tried a 2nd 2820 box and it did the same thing, then I finally eliminated the box altogether and went back to an inductive setup, and the miss was gone.

AEM has had issues with these Twin Fires since they came out years ago, and they've finally stopped making them now, which was probably the best thing they could do to "improve" the product.

In your case, I would pull the AEM out of the system and try a straight inductive setup (just ECU, ignitors and coils) and see how it works. If you have only 4 ignition channels and you must run waste spark, I'd run 2 x 4 channel ignitors to get a "4 in and 8 out" setup, and parallel the ECU triggers into the ignitors so that each coil gets an individual, dedicated ignitor output.

You'll get a hotter spark this way and the system will be happier. Alternatively you can try paralleling the coils, but this typically confuses the ignitors, or you can try putting the coils in series, but this splits the charging voltage to each coil, and I don't believe they develop full output.

 

[kc95sc400]

KC, I don't know if you've been running this setup successfully and it "just" developed a miss, or whether you've just fired it up for the 1st time, but I had issues with AEM's 2820 box when I tried it on the Ferrari, similar to what you're describing, although my miss was around 5000 to 5500.

It was a noticeable "stumble" during acceleration after the engine was warm. Wouldn't do it when cold, however. I was running the 12 cylinder on waste spark and only using 3 channels per side on the 2820. Had it wired correctly, and tried the coils both in parallel and in series with no change. Tried a 2nd 2820 box and it did the same thing, then I finally eliminated the box altogether and went back to an inductive setup, and the miss was gone.

AEM has had issues with these Twin Fires since they came out years ago, and they've finally stopped making them now, which was probably the best thing they could do to "improve" the product.

In your case, I would pull the AEM out of the system and try a straight inductive setup (just ECU, ignitors and coils) and see how it works. If you have only 4 ignition channels and you must run waste spark, I'd run 2 x 4 channel ignitors to get a "4 in and 8 out" setup, and parallel the ECU triggers into the ignitors so that each coil gets an individual, dedicated ignitor output.

You'll get a hotter spark this way and the system will be happier. Alternatively you can try paralleling the coils, but this typically confuses the ignitors, or you can try putting the coils in series, but this splits the charging voltage to each coil, and I don't believe they develop full output.

Hey man, thanks for the thorough response!

This started with the new setup. Wasn't developed.

Are there any off the shelf 2x4 ignitors you suggest? Something I could possibly find at a parts store?

I do suspect the AEM box which sucks cause I was all excited about it, LOL. Got it from Summit Racing though so if it turns out to be the problem it at least will be an easy return.

Thanks again,

KC

 

[cribbj]

Bosch of course make them. Their P/N for the 4 channel is 0 227 100 211.

Also, various tuner houses, like DIY Autotune for the MS stuff have taken more contemporary IGBT's like the VB921's, etc. and packaged them into their own ignitor modules, and I believe they offer 2/3/4 channel versions.

Then there's the junkyard pulls from various other cars like Nissan, etc. Toyota tend to have proprietary ignitor circuits that don't play well with aftermarket ECU's so I'd steer clear of their stuff.

I'd try this first and see if your miss goes away, then you'll know.

Also I'm assuming you know that by paralleling the ECU ignition channels into the 2, 4 channel ignitors you're not getting 8 sequentially fired channels - you still have a waste spark setup with only 4 channels, but the advantage is that each coil will now have its own IGBT. So watch your channels and wiring when you hook all this up.

Good luck!

 

[gloverman]

Do you even need ignitors? As per the instructions?

 

[cribbj]

Hey Kelvin good to see you chime in here. I must admit I don't know that much about these Adaptronic ECU's - perhaps they already have onboard ignitors?

If so, then KC might be limited to only the 4 channels coming out of the ECU and having to wire each set of 2 complementary coils in series for his setup.

There are signal doubler ignitor modules out there but they're scarce. Spitronics in SA have one that does 3 in and 6 out; it's called their F10 module.

 

[kc95sc400]

Thanks again for all the info.

I'm a bit frustrated at this point. Trying to wire it with 4 stock ignitors with each one triggering grounding 2 coils. Just to see if I can get the car running and if it gets rid of the problem before spending any more money.

Found these = http://www.amazon.com/4D0905351-Ign...&qid=1405033209&sr=1-3&keywords=0+227+100+211

I can order the above and have them tomorrow if needed. I'm torn though and considering an MSD DIS-4. To me, it doesn't seem as nearly as much of an upgrade if still using a low voltage inductive setup. Also, can't seem to find connectors for the ignitors.

The adaptronic does not have built in ignitors.

And I do only have 4 ign outs so with this ECU I know that my only option is wasted spark.

About done with the wiring but also working on bolting on my new Vortech V-2 Si.

 

[cribbj]

Just going COP from HT wires & coilpacks is an upgrade IMO

Those connectors are AMP/Bosch. EFI Express will have them.

You'll have a longer dwell and spark with inductive than CDI, too.

And if you can still find an HKS DLI around, this combination will handle all the boost that puny little Vortech can puke out (J/K). Some Supra's run this setup at 35 PSI of boost with no ignition blowout.

 

[kc95sc400]

I went ahead and ordered two of the ignitors. Wiring shouldn't be too bad to change AGAIN. I'm close to firing it up now with 4 stock ignitors. Even if the setup does work I'm assuming it would be better with the parts OTW.

The Vortech may be puny but its way bigger than the one I'm replacing.

I figure I'll either use female terminals to connect to the ignitors or solder directly to the pins. Fill with silicone either way.

 

[gloverman]

I would be checking with the manufacturer that you even need ignitors. Diagrams show the unit getting wired directly to the ECU and reading page 16 of the manual suggests the unit can receive a digital signal from the ECU by switching S2 to on. Less parts means less chance of issues and cheaper too. Provided the ECU has suitable dwell control which I believe it does but again would pay to check with the manufacturer.

 

[kc95sc400]

The AEM unit does not need ignitors. I had it wired in without them.

I am trying to take out the AEM unit to see if it's the problem and the Adaptronic DOES need ignitors.

 

[gloverman]

Got it. I was worried I was reading the instruction sheet wrong. I have a love hate relationship with CDI units. They work really good when everything is good but man I have seen some issues with them.

 

[cribbj]

I have a love hate relationship with CDI units. They work really good when everything is good but man I have seen some issues with them.

Me too!

The inductive setup isn't nearly as sexy as CDI, but it's simple, and has a nice long spark, and in combination with an HKS DLI, it does everything you could ask for.

It's really a pity HKS finally quit making the DLI's. I wish I knew what they did, and how they did it, because they certainly sorted out a lot of ignition issues for boosted engines.

 

[kc95sc400]

Me too!

The inductive setup isn't nearly as sexy as CDI, but it's simple, and has a nice long spark, and in combination with an HKS DLI, it does everything you could ask for.

It's really a pity HKS finally quit making the DLI's. I wish I knew what they did, and how they did it, because they certainly sorted out a lot of ignition issues for boosted engines.

They do appear to still be available.

So I guess the stock ignitors don't like being hooked up to two coils because the car will not start. LOL. I have power to the coils and to the ignitors and the ECU is getting cam and crank readings so unless I completely hooked everything up wrong, the stock Lexus ignitors will not work with two coils.

I might have (don't think so) mixed up IGN3 and IGN 4 but even if I did it should still hit half the time and it's not even trying.

So I'm glad I ordered the Bosch ingitors.....

 

[cribbj]

KC, if you have the coils wired in parallel, they'll pull too much current and the ignitor will shut itself down on overload. You'll probably need to wire them in series.

 

[kc95sc400]

I do have the wired parallel dang it!

At this point I will just wait for the Bosch units to show up, should be here today.

KC

 

[cribbj]

When you get the Bosch units, make sure you wire only their inputs in parallel so it's a true 4 in and 8 out.

Judging by your diagram in the 1st post, you know how to do the rest.

 

[kc95sc400]

Alrighty, got the ignitors and working on them as much as possible. My wife is out of town and I'm in charge of my 3 boys.

Cut out the connector housings as I don't have time to wait for connectors to get here. Soldered wires directly to the terminals and shrink wrapped. Got it party wired up in the car, about half way there. These ignitors, FYI, actually fit the bracket for the stock ignitors nicely.