1UZFE + carburator = ?

[chuff]

Hey guys, I'm building a 27 track T roadster. My plan is to use a 1UZFE v8 and completely discard of the engines computer and controls. Then build an intake manifold and install a carburator.

I have seen guys take late model 4 and 6 cylinder engines and doing this so I don't think i'm being totally ridiculous. My only concern is the 1UZFE ignition. I have seen that the 1UZFE has 2 distributor looking things on the intake cam shaft. Are these distributors in the traditional sense and is the control unit seperate from the ECU? If not could a guy rig up a control unit and coil from like MSD? I'm guessing you would have to use two control boxes and coils, one for each distributor, would I be right? That's if there is no way to use the stock stuff.

I'm sure the 1UZFE has a knock sensor of some sort to adjust the ignition timing, does anybody know if this ties in with the ECU or ignition control unit if there is a seperate one?

Is there anything I'm not thinking of to get the engine running? As you can tell I'm pretty clueless as of now, so tell me if I'm being totally retarded or it can't be done for some reason.

Thanks for the help.

 

[KDog]

My first question is WHY????? (unless you plan to race the car in a class where carbs are necessary, such as NZ sprint cars).

Fuel injection is superior to the carbs in EVERY scenario.

You will need a programmable ignition system to get the car running (and it needs to have two output channels). I don't know of many ignition only ECU's still being made. You may have to buy a full aftermarket ECU and not use the fuel part, or try and find an old system second hand.
The stock ECU will not run without the fuel injection part or a lot of fiddling around. All of the engine sensors go to the ECU.

 

[chuff]

My first question is WHY????? (unless you plan to race the car in a class where carbs are necessary, such as NZ sprint cars).

Fuel injection is superior to the carbs in EVERY scenario.

You will need a programmable ignition system to get the car running (and it needs to have two output channels). I don't know of many ignition only ECU's still being made. You may have to buy a full aftermarket ECU and not use the fuel part, or try and find an old system second hand.
The stock ECU will not run without the fuel injection part or a lot of fiddling around. All of the engine sensors go to the ECU.

I realize fuel injection is far better but i'm building a hot rod here and cleanness is the name of the game. I'm afraid i'll run into a lot of limitations with the stock ECU like using a manual tranny instead of the stock auto and I don't want to fiddle with wires and crap everywhere plus I'm building this car as cheaply as possible. I won't be using any sensors to speak of short of the detonation/knock sensor which I don't know if it is completely nessesary. Many earlier EFI'd cars have ignition seperate from the ECU, wondering if this engine does.

I just need to know if the stock ignition can stand alone. From what I can figure out from pictures the ignition looks fairly traditional except for the dual distrubutor part. It has simple rotors, caps, and coils in. Looks like worst case senario I'll have to get an aftermarket controller, anybody correct me if i'm wrong. Also wondering, can you advance or retard the timing by just rotating the distributors like an old school engine?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[madmont]

this bloke put a whole distributor on

 

[steveo]

Chuff,

There is no means of adjusting the timing with the existing distributors. The spark timing is controlled by the ECU. Also, there is no mechanical or vacuum adjust on the distributors fro the same reason.

If your final goal is a simple distributor system, then I'm sure you could rig up a V8 distributor from an early american V8 and just run it off of one of the intake cams as there is a means of holding the existing distributor in place and that could be used to mount any braketry for the adjustment of the timing. You could probably make all of the brakets live inside the cam drive/distributor housing, with just the head of the distributor sticking out...

A little machine work and you could have yourself a product for those, like yourself that want a simple system.

Steve.

 

[GSMnow]

You could probably use two MSD boxes with electronic rpm (mechanical like) advance curves. The two distributors are each even fire like a 4 banger, but they are times 90 degrees out from each other. So to separate crank triggers will be needed. For the MSD stuff you need 4 180 degree spaced magnets (for a 4 banger) on the crank and then the two pickups would bee 90 degrees apart. This setup still won't have vacuum advance so it won't have ideal part throttle efficiency, but wide open can be tuned quite well. Another way to go is an Electromotive direct fire ignition system. Again it uses a crank trigger, but it is a 60 tooth wheel (with 2 missing for sync) and it will have 4 dual tower coils and then you don't use any distributor at all. It is a bit cheaper than their TEC which also does fuel, but it also uses less wiring and works well with carbs. If I didn't have to deal with California emissions, I would use either an Electromotive TEC3 or an FJO-inc 341B Fuel and ignition computer and eliminate the distributors and also be able to run my W58 5 sped trans without worry. Though I would certainly stick with fuel injection. Carbs can be made to make good power, but they never transition as well as fuel injection and they can't compensate for changing air density. With a programmable ECU like the TEC3 you can run a very minimal wiring harness and still have nice running fuel injection. All you need is a MAP sensor, air temp, water temp, and crank trigger. Adding the throttle sensor can improve drivability with a quicker "accel pump" function. Adding the idle air motor will make the idle rpm more stable. Adding an O2 (or wideband O2) sensor will make cruise nicer and help with tuning. But all these are not needed to run as good or better than any carb. In fact I know a guy who didn't even run the temp sensors and just wired in a switch to trip the ECU from cold start (choke) to "warmed up" mode. Without the switch he had to blip the throttle to keep it idling before it warmed up.

Gary M.

 

[chuff]

Thanks for the suggestions.

After a little more research I'm intrigued by the Ford EDIS 8 ignition using this as a controller http://picasso.org/mjlj/ It adjusts the timing using a MAP sensor which is perfect for my application. Do you guys see any problem using the EDIS system? Any problems with using the wasted spark system?

I've also read up a little on MegaSquirt, I've never done any EFI tuning so I'm basically clueless. Could MS be used to control the stock injectors and what are the bare minumum sensors I would need to run the engine? MS could concievably run using the EDIS 8 ignition using the Ford 36 1 missing crank trigger. Also I wouldn't need the above ignition controller as MS could control the timing. What do you guys think about that? I see there is a lot of guys using MS and support for it, is anybody running it on a 1uz?

 

[Peewee]

Once you put all the covers on the motor, you can barely see any of the wiring.

If you convert to an aftermarket ecu all you will have is a 1/2 loom coming from the motor, at a position of your choice.

You could make it run down the top of the gearbox and into the cabin if you like.
95% of the wiring would be completely hidden.

 

[chuff]

Ok, so I've read a little more. If I run MegaSquirt II and EDIS all I need is a TPS, CTS, MAP, ATS, and crank trigger, right? Do I have to run an oxygen sensor? So if i'm understanding correctly the engine will just be running a pre-determined or closed loop "program" instead of vairiably or open loop like a modern EFI'd engine.

I think I'll just buy all the crap and try to put it together, lol. I've never done any EFI tuning but I am an IT guy so i'm fairly competent with computers and you guys will help me right, lol? Wondering if anybody here is using a setup as i'm proposing maybe I could pay you to provide your values in MS.

Thanks.

 

[Peewee]

The MS forums would be the best place for information and help in getting it right.

 

[MadPhil]

I run an electromotive HPX unit on my stockcar with a 600cfm Holley.
http://www.electromotive-inc.com

I replaced the standard crank trigger wheel with the HPX 3.5" wheel and mounted the HPX trigger in the same mount as the original Toyota.
I had a set of leads made with run to the rear of the engine.

I ripped off all the wiring and sensors from the engine. Now with HPX I only have 3 wires to control the whole ignition, + and - from the battery and 1 wire which goes to the crank trigger sensor. Its brillant.

The main unit has 4 coils and a control panel to adjust cranking advance, advance to 3000, and advance and retard for tuning up to 8000rpm.
Oh and it has a built in adjustable rev limiter.

At the time I think they were only $800US

Cheers
Phil

http://www.marxmotorsport.com

 

[krayn]

Madphill, What sort of power and revs are you getting out of your carb 1uz?

 

[BlownV8]

madphil,
where did you get the square bore manifold from. didn't think anyone made a carb manifold for the 1uz. Would make a good start for a 6/71 blower install.

Thanx
Blown

 

[edz]

Madphill, What sort of power and revs are you getting out of your carb 1uz?

From his specs, 7,900 with custom cams. That would sound wild against the chev's running around. No power mentioned, copied the pic as the manifold looks prett neat.

Chassis Spaceframe
Engine 1UZFE Quad Cam Toyota V8
- Block Standard (6 Bolt Main Bearings)
- Internals Standard Crankshaft, Pistons, Conrods
- Camshafts Custom cam lobe design, using shim under buckets
- Inlet CSL Cams Inlet Manifold
- Fuel System 600cfm Holley Carburettor
- Fuel Type AVGAS
- Redline 7900rpm
Ignition HPX Coil Packs

 

[MadPhil]

Yeah it sure sounded different!
The first engine (pictured on the web site) had around 350hp with ported heads and higher lift cams. Unfortunatly I bent the crank in that engine, because of a small crack in one of the heads. The second engine was completely std and would have had less than 300hp, unfortunatly that engine snapped a rod and destroyed itself @ 8000rpm. The current engine I only rev to 7500.
But another has turned up which we will once again port the heads and install higher lift cams and aim for another 360hp.
Some other cars in the same class are running 450hp (after spending heaps $$$$)

Because there are a number of cars in the stockcar class using the 1uz's, there are a couple of places that make carb inlet manifolds for these engines.
I got mine from Brendan at CSL Cams (0064 6 356 3700) a couple of years ago.

 

[ChrisV]

Phil, that looks like exact'y the setup that would work on my Comet project...

Sure on a late model car, leaving the EFi in place is the best route, but on a street rod that had only like 10 wires in the whole car in stock form, and doens't have a side engine compartment for the stock 1UZ airbox to go, swapping to a carb makes sense. My Comet has a carbed V8 in it, stock, and hooking up a computer to control everything in it is a lot of time and expense that simply isn't necessary.

The setup in your stocker would look right at home in the engine bay of the '63... I already have the carb, I'd just need to find an intake manifold. You said there are more places making them down there? Any links other than that phone number?

And electromotive doesn't seem to make the HPX anymore. I wonder if the XDi would work similar... I'm going to have to pick your brain on how you hooked it all up.

 

[techo]

Ignition for 1USZ

I am the Australian agent for the Electromotive products. I still dont know why everyone that has never seen the product range has their head in the sand. Just in case you want proof it works look at the seven second lexus powered drag car in QLD Australia! It is the simpliest system to install and tune. The stock car guys in NZ know the real value of a quality product. Look at www.directignition.com download the workshop manual and buy one today for your 23T or what ever you are building. I am more than happy to assist with anyone all over the world that wants a little help

 

[Peewee]

For full throttle performance you will see very very little difference between a carby and efi.
Any form of racing it really doesn't matter.

But for daily driver, and all round performance, efi has its benefits over carbies.

 

[ChrisV]

true, but again, look at the stock injection, and the air box, and all the wires for all the sensors and the location of the computer, and think about how that might all fit in a '27 track T:

A car that had maybe 10 wires in it in stock form, and not much room to mount the airbox off to the side.

Of course, we could install something like the individual trumpets from Tony Miller at 1uzquadcam (and man, those would look sweet), but think of the cost difference between that kind of setup AND the computer and simply buying a manifold for an inexpensive Holley (or even a Holley carb we might already have). A lot of you guys are used to working on late model cars, but really don't have much experience building street rods or '60s muscle, and thus don't have those parts just laying about.

I bought the complete 1UZ for my '63 Comet/falcon for $US 480. I have a Holley 650 from previous rodding projects. The car has no computer or wiring. It HAD a carbed Ford 260 cid V8 in it stock. And I would have had no problem living with a carbed Ford V8 on a daily basis, as I've had no problems with setups like that for decades. I have no problem with fuel injection, and have worked on a lot of modded late model cars, too. But I'd rather not spend a wad of extra cash just to make it runslightly better as a fuel injected car, then have to find a way of not only hooking up a comparativly complex wiring harness and airbox or alternative, and making it look good, too.

I drove this on the streets regularly for 5 years, and teh carb didnd't cause issues. And the only visible wires on it were the spark plug wires (which the 1UZ would cover up).

And techo, thanks for the assistance.

 

[ChrisV]

Just did some checking on pricing in US$...


So if I use the Electromotive XDi just to control spark, it'll cost me about $1000 just for ignition to make a $500 engine run if I use a carb setup. if I want to use injection, I'm looking at $2600-up for a TEC3 or Autronic or the like just to make a $500 engine run. And that doesn't include if I wanted the injection like Tony has on his site....

Suddenly the 1UZ doesn't look like such a good deal in a swap to a non-computer controlled car compared to the tried and true, carbed, distributor V8. The one in my RX7, above, was a 400 hp engine that cost me all of a grand to build. Now I'm looking at a grand just to get spark... the cost/benefit ratio is way down. I may just have to sell the 1UZ again.