Smaller turbos with bigger punches...

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$upra$rule

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Hi. I've got a 1UZ sitting in the engine bay of a MKII Supra and I've decided since I have to make custom extractors anyway, I would like to build them around a pair of turbos that would be tucked in close to the engine. There isn't much space here to start with, so I need to use small turbos. I'm looking for around 400 HP and hoping to do this on an unopened '91 engine (10:1) with water injection as well as inter-cooling to avoid detonation (i.e. I need an efficient turbo to limit heat to start with). This car will see fair weather daily use, spirited runs on very curvy roads (i.e. predictable power is a necessity), with an occasional drag strip pass or autocross event.

I have been looking at turbo maps, but these don't tell me a lot about the ability to shoehorn a particular turbo into a tight spot. I'm wondering if someone with more turbo experience can point me at some candidates for the award of "physically smallest turbo that meets my requirements".
 
if you want twins I would suggest the following

t28 frame

GT2871 with a 1.06 hot side

t3 frame

GT3076 with a .8 hot side

the gt28 will spool in sooner and still flow a huge amount of air without heating it too much
the gt30 will be idling but moving big volumes of air


it will help to know your spool goals in this scenario - peak power of 400 hp is relatively easily achievable
 
A pair of Garrett GT2056's are tiny and will support the HP that you want. There wont be much more room beyond that HP though. Also to add to this is that thier efficiency is very good for this type of setup (i.e. less heat).

I was planning to use them in my A70 chassis cause I could tuck them down beside the block thus looking more factory like.
 
You don't need water injection for 400 hp. If you're looking for 400 crank hp, then a pair of tiny T25 from Mitsubishi Eclipse will be just as good. A Mitsubishi Eclipse Spider with a single T25 has 200 crank hp from the factory. Many of them up the power to 200 whp, which is probably around 250 crank hp with no problem. 8 psi of boost with 2 T25s on
 
Check out IHI VF34 turbo its ball bearing with good low rpm response..
Another is the VF35 ...
Work well on STI Subaru's..
Nice small turbo's..
More info comparison..
VF22
This turbo has the highest output potential of all of the IHI VF series turbos and is the best choice for those who are looking for loads of top end power. The top end power however, does not come without a cost. The VF22 spools significantly slower than the rest of the IHI models due to the larger P20 exhaust housing and is much less suited for daily driving than some of the other models. Although the largest VF series turbo, the VF22 is not quite optimal for stroked engines or those who wish to run more than 20PSI of boost.

VF23
This turbo is considered a great all-around turbo. Like the VF22 it utilizes the largest P20 exhaust housing. This housing is mated with a smaller compressor housing of the of the VF24. This turbo is considered optimal in applications with range from mild to slightly wild. It does not have the same top end power of the VF22, but spools up significantly quicker.

VF24
This turbo shares its compressor housing with the VF23 however, this housing is mated with a smaller (P18) exhaust side. The smaller characteristics of this turbo allow it to provide ample bottom end power and quick spool. This turbo is very popular for Imprezas with automatic transmissions and Group N rally cars.

VF28
This turbo came standard on the STi Version 5. In terms of overall size, it is smaller than the VF22, VF30 and VF34, and about same size as the VF23.

VF29
This Turbo is nearly identical to the VF24, with the same compressor and exhaust housings. However the compressor wheel in the VF29 is has been changed slightly. The changes made to the compressor wheel in this model are generally viewed as improvements, and as such this unit is typically chosen over the VF24.

VF30
The VF30 is commonly considered the best bang for the buck turbo in the IHI VF series line. A relatively new model the VF30 features the same exhaust housing as the VF24 but a larger compressor side similar to the VF22. The combination of these two parts results in increased output potential without the lag associated with the VF22. Although it doesn't offer the top end supremacy of the VF22, the VF30 is a great compromise between these unit and the quicker spooling models.

VF34
The VF34 is nearly identical to the VF30, with the same exhaust housing and compressor. However the VF34 goes back to the ball bearing design, and in doing so achieves full boost approximately 500RPM sooner than the comparable VF30. The VF34 is the most recent IHI design and as such costs slightly more than its counterpart. Top end performance and maximum output are identical to the 30.

VF35
The VF35 has identical internals as the VF30 and it uses divided thrust bearings. However, the exhaust housing is a P15 which means this turbo will have fantastic spool characteristics. This turbo is standard on the new WRX Type RA. LIMITED SUPPLY.

VF36
Roller bearing version of the twin scroll VF37, also has a titanium turbine and shaft for even quicker spool. Same compressor housing as VF30/34, however twin scroll P25 exhaust housing provides slightly better top end output due to reduced exhaust pulse interference. This turbo is good for 400HP and used on JDM STI Spec C from 2003 onwards.

VF37 (thrust bearing)
Enter the age of twin scroll IHI turbos. Same compressor housing as VF30/34, however has a new twin scroll P25 exhaust housing that provides slightly better top end output due to reduced exhaust pulse interference. Twin scroll also provides better spool up for improved low down response over the VF30/34. This turbo is good for 400HP and used on JDM STI from 2003 onwards.

VF38
Twin scroll turbo with titanium turbine and shaft. Smaller compressor housing than VF36/VF37 provides tremendous spool up capabilities but less top end than VF36/37. The spool capabilities of this turbo are demonstrated on the JDM Legacy GT, which reaches peak torque at 2400RPM.

VF39
Single scroll turbo used on USDM STI and latest 2.5L STIs released internationally. Smaller than VF30/VF34.

VF42
Exclusive turbo to the S203/S204 models, this features a twin scroll design with a slightly larger compressor than the VF36/37 turbos and different turbine design (more blades). The VF42 is a roller-bearing turbo and is likely of similar size to the VF22 turbo, but with twin scroll exhaust housing for faster spool and superior top end performance due to reduced exhaust pulse interference.

PE 1818 The 1818 supposedly comes on boost extremely fast...which make it great for road racing or aggressive driving (remember to be responsible :^). The 1818 maxes out somewhere between 350-375 hp.

PE 1820 The 1820 is larger than the 1818 and is capable of running more boost, but at the expense of more turbo lag. Expect it not attain full boost until you have passed 4000 rpm. However, it can be tuned to 400+ hp.



IHI & Garret Turbo Specs
Model Type Compressor Inlet Diameter Compressor Housing Nominal Turbine Housing Turbine Approx A/R Compressor Wheel Blades Turbine Wheel Blades Waste Gate Actuator Turbine Casting ID & Batch
VF22 Roller Bearing 48.5 A 9.4 PZ20-H 94001 0.71 5 11 C395 H, H4
VF 23 Roller Bearing 46.7 B 9.4 PZ20-H 94001 0.71 6 11 C395 8psi TBA
VF 24 Roller Bearing 46.7 B 9.4 PZ18-H 94001 0.63 6 11 C418 8psi H, S4, 66
VF 30 Bronze Bearing 47.9 C 9.4 PZ18-H 94001 0.63 6 11 C484 H, S4, IC F55
VF 34 Roller Bearing

Garrett 400 Ball Bearing 53 - - Outlet Dia 51.5 - 7 9 11 psi
Garrett 450-500 Ball Bearing 53 Outlet Dia 46.9 - 7 10 14 psi




Turbo Type ----------- Approx flow @ pressure
Stock Turbo ---------- 360 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 25 ------------- 370 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 26 ------------- 390 CFM at 14.7 PSI
T3 60 trim ----------- 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 27 ------------- 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 24/28/29 ----- 410 CFM at 14.7 PSI
========= 422 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======
IHI VF 23 ------------- 423 CFM at 14.7 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID -- 430 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF-30 ------------- 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 30 ----------------- 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF-22 ------------ 440 CFM at 14.7 PSI
T04E 40 trim -------- 460 CFM at 14.7 PSI
========= 464 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
PE1818 -------------- 490 CFM at 14.7 PSI
Small 16G ------------ 505 CFM at 14.7 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) --- 525 CFM at 14.7 PSI
========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======
Large 16G ----------- 550 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 40 ----------------- 595 CFM at 14.7 PSI
18G ------------------- 600 CFM at 14.7 PSI
PE 1820 -------------- 630 CFM at 14.7 PSI
20G ------------------ 650 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 50 ---------------- 710 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-30 ---------------- 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
60-1 ----------------- 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-35R -------------- 820 CFM at 14.7 PSI
T72 ------------------ 920 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- Note you would have to spin a 2.0 L engine at about 14,000 rpm to flow this much air.
IHI VF 25 ----------- 395 CFM at 18 PSI
IHI VF 26 ----------- 400 CFM at 18 PSI
T3 60 trim ---------- 410 CFM at 20 PSI
IHI VF 27 ----------- 420 CFM at 18 PSI
IHI VF 24/28/29 -- 425 CFM at 18 PSI
IHI VF 23 ----------- 430 CFM at 18 PSI
IHI VF-30 ----------- 460 CFM at 18.0 PSI
AVO 320HP -------- 465 CFM at 17.5 PSI
T04E 40 trim ------ 465 CFM at 22 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID- 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI
IHI VF-22 ---------- 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI
SR 30 --------------- 490 CFM at 22 PSI
Small 16G ---------- 490 CFM at 22 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) - 500 CFM at 19 PSI
PE1818 ------------ 515 CFM at 22 PSI
Large 16G --------- 520 CFM at 22 PSI
========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
========= 578 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
HKS GT2835 ------- 580 CFM at 22 PSI 400 hp
MRT 400 ------------ 580 CFM at 16 PSI
AVO 400HP -------- 580 CFM at 17.5 PSI
MRT 450 ------------ 650 CFM at 19 PSI
AVO 450HP -------- 650 CFM at 20.0 PSI
SR 40 ---------------- 650 CFM at 22 PSI
========= 658 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
HKS GT3037 ------ 670 CFM at 22 PSI 460 hp
PE 1820 ----------- 680 CFM at 22 PSI
20G ---------------- 695 CFM at 20.0 PSI
HKS GT3040 ----- 710 CFM at 22 PSI 490 hp
AVO 500HP ------ 770 CFM at 22 PSI
SR 50 ------------- 770 CFM at 22 PSI
GT-30 ------------- 790 CFM at 22 PSI
60-1 --------------- 800 CFM at 22 PSI
HKS GT3240 ----- 830 CFM at 22 PSI 570 hp
GT-35R ----------- 880 CFM at 22 PSI
T72 --------------- 1000 CFM at 22 PSI <--- note you would have to run a 2.0 L engine at >40 PSI boost to flow this much air
Conversions used where there was control over conversion factors:
1 HP approx equals 1.45 CFM
1 CFM approx equals 0.0745 lb of air/min
0.108 Lb/min approx equals 1 hp
1 Meter cubed/sec = 35.314 CFS = 2118.867 CFM
1 KG/sec = 132 lbs/min approx equals 1771.812 CFM
power coversions:
1 PS = 0.9859 HP = 75 Kgf m/sec
1.3405 HP = 1 KW
1 HP = 746 watts

hopefully this will be easier for people to find
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it will help to know your spool goals in this scenario
Quite honestly, I don't know what is realistic or what will work good. I'm trying to learn that. I posted a question in the turbo calculator thread because I'm not sure what RPM to put in the boxes for RPM at max. boost and RPM at min. boost. My primary concern with spool is that power doesn't come on suddenly mid-corner.
A pair of Garrett GT2056's are tiny
Do you have any exterior dimensions or a link to dimensions besides just the I.D. etc.? What are these commonly used in or are there no OEM using them? Can't seem to find many for sale.
You don't need water injection for 400 hp..... 8 psi of boost with 2 T25s on

I figured I would need the WI if I wanted to keep the 10:1 compression to avoid having to use race fuel. Is a T25 the same as a TD05? Just trying to match it up to get a map. The calculators say I will need more than 8psi at the turbos to reach 400, but I hope your right.

XR8tt, that's a lot of info. I'm still digesting it...
 
I figured I would need the WI if I wanted to keep the 10:1 compression to avoid having to use race fuel. Is a T25 the same as a TD05? Just trying to match it up to get a map. The calculators say I will need more than 8psi at the turbos to reach 400, but I hope your right...
I'm not sure exactly if the T25 is the same as the TD05, although I've heard that term sometimes. You'll just need premium gas to run the car. The SC400 usually loses 25-28% to the drivetrain loss. An SC with a supercharger and 6 psi is typically dynoed at 260-270 rwhp equalling to around 361 bhp. The latest dyno is from KC95SC. He runs 8.5 psi on a supercharger and dynoed his car at 340 rwhp equalling to around 472 bhp. Some other swapped 1UZ to other cars with a forced induction system average about the same. A SC400 by Rdmfan with a turbo is dynoed at 17 psi and made 512 rwhp. I am not sure if he ran the stick shift or auto tranny at that time. That's a difference of hp to the wheels between manual and auto tranny. My SC400 with a turbo with around 8.5 psi had a run against another swapped 2JZGTE SC400 with 340 rwhp. We ran equally all the time.

I base my calculation on the averaged dyno from other SC400. A stock SC400 '92 to '95 has 250 bhp, but it is typically dynoed from 180 rwhp (the most) and up to 190 rwhp. My calculation for the auto tranny of the SC is this:

Rwhp / .72 = Crank hp

.72 is deducted from 28% loss to the drivetrain. This calculation varies, but it's just an idea.

So 340 rwhp / .72 = 472 crank hp.
 
A SC400 by Rdmfan with a turbo is dynoed at 17 psi and made 512 rwhp. I am not sure if he ran the stick shift or auto tranny at that time. That's a difference of hp to the wheels between manual and auto tranny.

17 psi made 510 at the back tires through the automatic. with upgraded Toyota CT-26 turbos
my car hasn't ran with the 6-speed yet. I'm hoping that changes very soon.
 
I base my calculation on the averaged dyno from other SC400. A stock SC400 '92 to '95 has 250 bhp, but it is typically dynoed from 180 rwhp (the most) and up to 190 rwhp. My calculation for the auto tranny of the SC is this:

Rwhp / .72 = Crank hp

.72 is deducted from 28% loss to the drivetrain. This calculation varies, but it's just an idea.

So 340 rwhp / .72 = 472 crank hp.

Steve, I have long made my opinion known... that Lexus overrated the 1uzfe until 1995 in the LS400 and 1996 in the SC400. For the early engine I use 225-230hp. These cars typically dyno 175rwhp with 180 being a strong example.

230 - 175 = 55hp loss

55 / 230 = 23.9% loss (in my opinion STILL too high)

I believe a better example would be the 300hp 1998 GS400 rated 300hp and typical dyno of 235rwhp.

300 - 235 = 65hp loss

65 / 300 = 21.6% loss

I think 22% is plenty and probably too high as the power levels get higher.

Loss is not a direct percentage but using a simple percentage will be fairly accurate at modest power changes. Inertia, deflection, friction all contribute some fairly statically and others very dynamically.

To calculate engine power from dynojet numbers you must divide the rwhp number by 78 (for a 22% loss) and then multiply by 100.

example: 235 rwhp / 78 = 3.01 x 100 = 300hp engine.

As the power level goes up the relative mass of the drivetrain becomes less so I would drop the loss a couple points per hundred so for 340 I would use 20% drop.

example: 340rwhp / 80 = 4.25 x 100 = 425hp engine (decent estimate)

at the 450rwhp level I would probably use 18% loss = 549hp

550rwhp using 16% = 654hp

The law of decreasing returns means that the rate of drop should slow down so I would start dropping by 1% above these levels.

650rwhp loosing 15% = 765hp

Again, this is all for estimating. What the engine makes is important for fuel calculations but it is of course the rwhp that makes the car accelerate. HP is force (torque) over time.
 
TDOx refers to the the exhaust inlet flange size. TDO4 has a smaller flange pattern and opening than a TD05. Generally 05's flow better than 04's but again that is a generality.
 
Turbo from VG30T would go o/k ..
Or From RB30T. Nissan Skyline / V.L Commodore engines .. X's 2... They work o.k on 5.0 Fords so would work well on on hi tech 4.0 V8.. Infact they are used on 4.0 Fords in the old days before GT35/40, 4 valve XR6T came along here in Aussie..
 


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