Low End Or High End

[rivmasta]

Its about horses for courses:

Two buggies both about the same size and weight: 1600cc Supercharged (4AG-ZE) vs 2Ltr turbo (SR20DET)
Both close to stock motors other than a little more boost over standard, intercoolers, injectors etc.

Example 1:
Smallish tight track, lots of sharp jumps, trees and max speed on straight about 145km/h (about 90mile per hour) Supercharged buggy always wins.
Example 2:
A track with much more open corners, lots of bigger, more flowing jumps, less trees and longer straights up to about 200km/h (124 m/h) and the turbo buggy always wins.

Goes to show that it depends on what you want to use it for.
The SC buggy won our state short course championship, the Turbo the state long course championship.

 

[Cobber]

Low end grunt for me please.
Now how do I bolt 2 1UZ's together to make a V16 twin suprcharged motor to put in my Cobra.

 

[turbosix]

I have a current article about an Aussie who went to " over there " to have a drive in a Saleen and a new GT40 side by side .

A 7 litre twin turbo with 552 Kw and 949Nm weighing 1338 kg against the GT with a supercharged 5.4 litre with 410 Kw and 678 Nm weighing 1580 Kg .
In a 40 Km/h roll on in second gear the GT jumped away to a car length lead and then held it to insane speeds , so even with 40% more power and torque and 20% less weight even the Saleen couldn't make back the ground lost the Super Charged car gained while the turbo's spooled up !!
And that was on a dead straight section of road , imaging the ground gained out of every corner , no contest on the road in the real world , supercharger giving low end every time !!

sounds like someone needs to take a class in turbo 101 and learn how to match turbochargers to applications to me.

my buick could make 30psi at 2,000rpm if i wanted it to.


this is a case of not knowing what the hell you are doing, thus, a failed comparison.

 

[turbosix]

Buy a supra and have both!

yes, because running 12.00@130mph is "having both" wned:

 

[Nick M]

yes, because running 12.00@130mph is "having both" wned:

You know the popular Mustang Joke right?

What do 300 hp, 400 hp, and 500 hp Supras have in common? 12 second time slips.

 

[jibbby]

Buy a supra and have both!

Supra's don't have enough low end grunt for my liking, not even close...I have never seen a six banger with low end muscle that was not a diesel or something of that nature...Even my straight six 4.5L Toyota Land Cruiser which is geared and setup for lowend torque from factory has nothing on a good V8 that is geared in the same fashion...Infact, a little 283 Chevy V8 motor that I had years ago swapped into my FJ40 LandCruiser had so much torque I could lift the front tires when punching it from a dead stop in low range on good gripping ground...Even twisted my gear box twice, snapped the stock front axle in reverse from the engine's torque.. That was torque and the Supra would not come close to those torque levels even though the HP rating are close in comparison on both motors..

The cams have much to do with a motors torque performance...Gearing on the car has everything to do with torque at the wheels...

I would think the Supra are more top end, but don't know for sure....Never owned that 6 banger twin....

 

[turbosix]

Supra's don't have enough low end grunt for my liking, not even close...I have never seen a six banger with low end muscle that was not a diesel or something of that nature....

my buick... in 1984 had 300rwtq @ 2,000rpm

sukka

 

[jibbby]

A six cylinder buick? Maybe a Grand National........With these turbo'd 6 banger cars your not going to get that immediate rude low end torque as much as the V8 motors.....Spool time, lack of two cylinders and the straight six design prohibits the rediculous low end grunt that I am talking about.....

The V8 design is better for your low end grunt, torque, and lowend power, etc..the kind of grunt that jerks your head back out of the blocks and jerks your car forward. You know like when the rpm's climb wickedly fast from 0-4000rpm and the power is felt...tires spin, front end lifts....I can't diescribe it any better then that....Don't think many six bangers have that kind of torque potential even with the turbo's... Am I right or wrong on this?

Also, I don't think six banger owners can comment on this subject if they have never experienced a good torquey V8 motor...

 

[Nick M]

I don't believe cylinder arrangement is nearly as important to torque production as displacement. Heavy duty powertrains use an inline due to manifold advantages with a turbocharger.

 

[jibbby]

True Nick, the big inline diesel motors are all torque, and of course the belt driven supercharged 6 cylinder motors there is no delay so there is instant torque with a boosted motor...There are always acceptions, I was speaking in general. Also displacement is huge in a motor.....

 

[turbosix]

A six cylinder buick? Maybe a Grand National........With these turbo'd 6 banger cars your not going to get that immediate rude low end torque as much as the V8 motors.....Spool time, lack of two cylinders and the straight six design prohibits the rediculous low end grunt that I am talking about.....

The V8 design is better for your low end grunt, torque, and lowend power, etc..the kind of grunt that jerks your head back out of the blocks and jerks your car forward. You know like when the rpm's climb wickedly fast from 0-4000rpm and the power is felt...tires spin, front end lifts....I can't diescribe it any better then that....Don't think many six bangers have that kind of torque potential even with the turbo's... Am I right or wrong on this?

Also, I don't think six banger owners can comment on this subject if they have never experienced a good torquey V8 motor...

maybe a?.....

you're more wrong than you know. yes, i know about v8 torque. my car pulled 1.900's on crap street tires... with slicks it could go 1.60s no problem.

stereotypes arent your friends.. ****.. my car doesnt even have an intercooler

you cannot use supras with huge turbos designed for upper RPM usage as a baseline.

knowing how to size your turbo for the application is key.

a friend of mine paid to dyno my car... on 10psi with 30* timing retard due to false knock it made 336rwtq.. on the normal 17psi with 17* advance like it should have had.. one can assume it would be quite a bit more. i dont give a crap about dynos so I havent been back, the fact remains though..

cylinder pressure = torque... not "v8 = torque"

 

[lowboost]

He's right, but turbo's also make good torque too. Is that your GN? Those things are awesome! I remember in my MR2 I got a best of a 1.7 sixty foot. I miss that damn car!

 

[jibbby]

I said there are exceptions.. Your Grand National is one of them...Of course "V8's does not equal torque"... All I was saying I see alot more lowend power in the V8 motors on average in comparison to 6 cylinder motors that come in standard cars..

If I am not mistaken last time I checked mostly all Nascars, Formula's,Top fuelers, funny cars, monster trucks, etc. etc..are not running huge straight 6 cylinder motors in these comp cars.. They mostly if not all are running the V8's, and some v10's and V12's... You know the big blocks motors that generate tons of torque?

I believe 99% of engine builders would prefer a 500cid V8 over a 500cid inline six banger.. (The 500CID was just an fictional example)

Am I still wrong?

 

[WDoherty]

jibby i know what your talking about ( i had a 400sbc and the throttle response was nuts), your that muscle car feel kinda guy. Drop a gm crate 572 in the sc with a 2 speed powerglide and your wants shall be fulfilled.

 

[jibbby]

I would love the 572 crate in my SC400, don't get me started....I dream of a big block Chevy under my SC400 from time to time.... Never know, maybe one day.....

 

[turbosix]

I said there are exceptions.. Your Grand National is one of them...Of course "V8's does not equal torque"... All I was saying I see alot more lowend power in the V8 motors on average in comparison to 6 cylinder motors that come in standard cars..

If I am not mistaken last time I checked mostly all Nascars, Formula's,Top fuelers, funny cars, monster trucks, etc. etc..are not running huge straight 6 cylinder motors in these comp cars.. They mostly if not all are running the V8's, and some v10's and V12's... You know the big blocks motors that generate tons of torque?

I believe 99% of engine builders would prefer a 500cid V8 over a 500cid inline six banger.. (The 500CID was just an fictional example)

Am I still wrong?

you cant use motorsports for any type of arguement because they run what the ruleset allows. Busch Grand National series ran V6 motors back in the 80s... its where the GN got its name from. They made 600hp+ out of na carbureted V6 motors..

the reason you dont see many torquey v6's on the market today is because they're all small displacement motors with weak ass transmissions.. torque breaks trannies, high tq motors require built trannies. consumers largely dont know the difference and they're not trying to drag race their fwd econobox so what does it matter if the thing is a dog off the line? they can skimp out on the trans and not have anything to worry about durability wise.

 

[turbosix]

I would love the 572 crate in my SC400, don't get me started....I dream of a big block Chevy under my SC400 from time to time.... Never know, maybe one day.....

an ls1 would probably be a better idea.. lighter, more fuel efficient... depending on how it is built power potential very close..

 

[jibbby]

an ls1 would probably be a better idea.. lighter, more fuel efficient... depending on how it is built power potential very close..

Turbosix - The GM 572 Crate engine (NA) produces 650 ft-lbs of torque at 4500rpm's and a base of 620 hp rating....Not bad for a NA motor.. The LS1 is half that...

Hard to beat the ZZ572 GM... (NA speaking)

 

[turbosix]

Turbosix - The GM 572 Crate engine (NA) produces 650 ft-lbs of torque at 4500rpm's and a base of 620 hp rating....Not bad for a NA motor.. The LS1 is half that...

Hard to beat the ZZ572 GM... (NA speaking)

12498793Turn Key ZZ572/620, 620 HP 572 Street/Strip Crate Engine $12,785.80

$13,000 for 620hp huh? what a bargain :slaphappy

...if you're going to go to the trouble of dropping a big block into a lexus, then you probably have the skills to get a measly 620hp out of an LS1

 

[WDoherty]

turbosix, when i stated the 572 it was a joke, didn't think you guys would take it seriously. For a torquey powerplant, yes the ls1 would be the best candidate. Hence, why i brought up the ls1 for my celica swap. But, most people cringe at the idea of dropping a gm product in a lexus, that's a tricky mark thing. I remember on tv one time i saw a guy that pulled the v-10 out of viper and dropped a blown bbc in there with a powerglide, tubed, and slicks. I was thinking what kind of red neck got that much money and destroyed an 80,000 sportcar designed for speed and handling. If he wanted a drag car he should have gone and found a camaro or a nova.