IS-F transmission identification?

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Jim Blackwood

New Member
Messages
28
Location
Florence, KY
I just had a transmission delivered, how can I verify that it is the 8 speed automatic out of the IS-F as promised? I have copied the identifying numbers:

35010-53110
(I believe this is the part number)
08CLA02414
JTHBP 2624
85001996

and then there's a matrix of 5 digit alphanumeric codes that I doubt anyone but Toyota understands but here it is as well:

19FF0 2096E 00FFF
QFFFF FF0FF 00128
10001 10110 F0110
0000F 00CF0 00094

Would anyone here be able to tell what vehicle this tranny came out of from looking at the part number? I had some photos to post but the disk formatting went south so I'll take more photos and post them later. I do know that the converter bolt pattern is slightly larger than the one used in the A650E of the SC430 and the bellhousing pattern is a bit different as well. The converter looks similar (in spite of press releases mentioning a "flat" torque converter) and the bolts are different, at least in terms of the thread and perhaps the size also. I'll have some more details later. Thanks,

Jim
 
From the Lexus parts desk, the vin number (from the metal tag on the side of the transmission case) identifies the car as a 2008 IS-F, so this is indeed the transmission it is supposed to be.

Jim
 

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Very clean & hefty looking tranny. Curious how much you had to give for it, and what's it going into?
 
I made a very "irregular" deal on this tranny which will make comparisons difficult as it started out as a purchase of a 6 speed which due to a misunderstanding ended up being a 5 speed, and in the end created a discount on the 8 speed and what I ended up with was the 5 speed and the 8 speed for something like $2700. From my research that's a fairly decent price just for the 8 speed alone. Anyone need a 5 speed out of an SC-430?

It's going in a 1970 MGB behind a very special Buick 340 V8, which is running an Eaton M-112 blower, custom air/liquid intercooler, EFI port injection, and distributorless ignition. The car also sports a Jaguar IRS and forward tilt bonnet, as well as extensive bodywork.

http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,274,page=13
http://www.britishv8.org/MG/JimBlackwood.htm

The transmission controls may well be the biggest challenge and I would greatly appreciate any leads on technical materials, particularly hydraulic diagrams, wiring schematics and operational descriptions. If a book on this transmission exists that would be even better. At present I am considering use of the factory driveline control computer and also looking into the possibility of using a commercial industrial programmable logic controller.

Thanks,
Jim
 

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Thanks, looks like he used a PCS controller but they do not support anything beyond the A340 and their controller does not have enough outputs to support the AA80E, or the A650E for that matter, and when I contacted them awhile back they weren't interested in the A650E. I know James Murray (Megasquirt) and am on good terms with him I think so one approach would be to get in touch with him and discuss it. But I'd rather not reverse engineer any more of this than I have to so the search is on for reference materials.

Jim
 
Whoops, sorry for the bum steer; I thought I remembered him upgrading to an A650 box.

Would a PLC be fast enough?
 
Just had a read of your project pages over on the BritishV8 website. That's quite some project.

A pentane powered refrigeration system for your intercooler? That's the kind of weird & wonderful stuff that really gets the creative juices flowing, doesn't it?

Love those old BOP ally V8's too. I always thought their crowning glory came when Jack Brabham and Repco converted them to OHC's, and won both the constructor's and driver's championship with them.

We should try to get you interested in these 4 cam V8's we play with here @ Lextreme :)
 
We should try to get you interested in these 4 cam V8's we play with here @ Lextreme :)

That might not be a bad thing, I'm very impressed with the development that's been done on the IS-F. But for that to happen I'm afraid someone's going to have to offer me a job that will pay for the toys. As it stands right now, old technology is about all my budget will stand. This new toy (the AA80E from an IS-F) has really stretched things badly out of shape.

Are PLC's fast enough? You know, that's a very good question. Although I don't have the answer right now, just the fact that they've been in existence longer (arguably) than automotive computers leads me to think that they probably are. Since it wouldn't have to deal with spark or injection events I would think that a cycle time under 10 ms might be enough to get the job done and that's not much of a demand on the electronics when component times are typically in the microsecond range and sometimes even less. So the answer is probably yes. Can it be as sophisticated as the stock controller? Perhaps, but making that happen would be quite a job. This also brings up an interesting possibility. In "M" mode the stock system requires 200 ms to initiate a shift. The shift itself requires a scant 100 ms to execute, which is really pretty fast considering that F1 trannys are just half that. So how much of that 200 ms is processor time? A good air solenoid valve 15 years ago could switch in 12 ms or less so I have to think that the "Fast acting linear solenoids" used in the transmission's hydraulics are at least that fast. This leads me to think that a fair number of processor cycles are being taken up with things like checking the conditions of all the sensors, switches and other inputs, consulting tables, accessing memory, and being fitted in between engine requirements, and finally calculating the optimal gear selection and gear change parameters before the ECM ever gets around to issuing a shift command. Don't get me wrong, getting all that done in 200 ms is a laudable feat, but there ought to be quite a bit of time there that could be saved in a simpler system. It could mean the difference between having 1/3 second shifts (including shift lag) and 1/4 second shifts or less. To me, that is a very significant difference.

I got a good deal of information from the local Lexus dealership. The IS-F uses a separate TCM which has a dedicated cable to the transmission and is connected to the ECM via CAN bus. The TCM controls all shift parameters but the ECM determines shift points, firmness, and mode using numerous inputs. So to use the stock TCM requires a CAN bus equipped controller with the appropriate outputs, whatever they are. I think that either the TCM and ECM should be used as a pair, which will require hacking the ECM at least to the extent of phantom inputs, or neither should be used, although it may be possible to use the CAN bus enabled Megasquirt to control the TCM, provided the code is modified to provide the needed outputs (which I don't know how to do at this time). I don't know if James Murray or one of the other Megasquirt gurus can be persuaded to pursue this or not, considering that they are strongly biased towards GM. All I can do is ask.

This tranny has 5 of the linear solenoids, all of which require a PWM control signal which is what gives control of the shift firmness. The TCC solenoid also used PWM for intermediate or partial engagement for economy, not fundamentally a necessity for this application. Also there are a couple of other solenoids used in this manner, one for line pressure reduction and at the moment I forget what the other function is. But since there are 9 solenoids I might as well just expect 8 of them to require PWM signals. That means a PLC controller would have to have at a minimum 8 PWM outputs (TCC Lock-up could be controlled manually) and about a dozen inputs at least. I do now have the solenoid identifications as well as truth tables for on/off conditions, so the only remaining parameters to be determined are actuation interval/PWM slope, and delay/overlap plus addition of any programming for automatic mode. I don't think this is an insurmountable problem by any means.

Jim
 
Well, I was very surprised to see that some of the newer micro PLC's have scan times of around 1.0 msec per 1K of program, so it looks like it could indeed be doable.

Some of these little FPGA based PLC's actually have scan times listed in microseconds, instead of milliseconds!

Hmmm, when the technology gets to this point, wouldn't it be fun to build an engine EMS from a PLC?

So many fun things still to do on the bucket list......
 
Thermactor, I don't know if it'll keep up with your LS400 or not, but if 315/35-17's, a posi, an 8 speed and roughly 1 hp per 5 lbs of vehicle weight will get the job done then I just might have a shot at it. I suppose we can give it a go later on when we get both cars back into action.

There's a tremendous amount of info about PLC's on the web so I think the trick is going to be to wade through it all and come up with a unit that is small but powerful, with an adequate number of inputs and outputs of the proper type, at a reasonable cost. The predominant programming scheme uses "ladder logic" which can take the form of a graphical representation of mechanical relay states so it is inherently intuitive once you understand what the symbols and conditions look like. Inputs can be analog or digital and outputs can be the same with more complex options like PWM, PID feedback loops, and outputs designed to drive Variable Frequency motor Drives. In our case we need mostly PWM outputs with some PID capability, enough to drive 9 solenoids and possibly another output for an IAC valve that could be opened for blip on downshift. So 10 configurable outputs would be ideal and we could get by with 8 if we controlled the lock-up clutch manually.

It would be good if we had about 16 inputs, about half analog. The tranny has 3 tach inputs (digital) one pressure and one temperature inputs (analog). In addition we have the TPS, MAP, gear select (neutral, park, rev, drive), manual mode, upshift, downshift, TCC engage (manual), and clutch function (a new wrinkle) as well as others we might want to use like engine temp. I think 16 inputs, at least 4 of which are analog should just about get the job done, though obviously we can do it with less if we are willing to lean more towards manual mode.

Including engine management in the package is the Holy Grail of course, along with chassis and coach management as well and allows all sorts of enhancements but matters become a lot more complex once you include sequential injection, ignition, VVT and other engine needs and the micro-PLC may not be able to handle it all without other peripheral equipment. Anyway I think it's probably best to start with something manageable and work up.

Jim
 


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