BMW V12 Project

[cribbj]

I must say I didn't know anyone in Houston had a Pantera with a twin turbo BMW V12 in it! I'd sure like to see it sometime - what color was it and what part of Houston were you in when you saw it?

 

[widemr2t]

It was all black with pretty heavy tint and black wheels. I don't really know exactly where I was since I'm new here and at the time I was lost lol. SE of downtown I think is the best I can do sorry at: He may have been lieing to me who knows. Some guys with nice cars don't take me seriously or think I know what I'm talking about because of my age so he may have been lieing. But if you heard it I don't think theirs anyway a 351 cleveland could sound like that. At the very least I know it wasn't the original 351.

 

[cribbj]

I tend to think it could have been the real deal because:

1. The average Houston bubba probably doesn't even know that BMW make a V12 motor, nor would they know one if they saw it.

2. Someone driving a Pantera of any ilk is not one of your average Houston bubbas. This lot prefer Ford or Chevy pickups or if they're having their midlife crisis, they'll drive a Corvette or Viper.

3. As you pointed out, a V12 BMW motor isn't going to sound anything like a 351 Cleveland.

I need to troll a few Pantera forums to see if anyone knows who this guy is. I'd sure like to get a look at that car & motor.

Welcome to Houston, BTW. Be sure to carry an umbrella every day here, and don't get caught out after dark. Our mosquitoes have already decimated the city of any birds smaller than pigeons, and they're working on the cats and small dogs now.

(Sometimes we do tend to stretch the truth a bit here in Texas.)

 

[stevechumo]

....(Sometimes we do tend to stretch the truth a bit here in Texas.)

That's understandable. Texax is a hot place and the heat softens things a bit...LOL:la:

 

[cribbj]

Well, there's been some progress with my V12 motor. Unfortunately it hasn't really been a "priority" build, particularly since there's been a lot of re-engineering and trial fitting going on with the lube oil system, and because I wasn't willing to write a blank check to get it done in a hurry.

However, according to my ace BMW expert, he and the machinist are on the last revision of the dry sump system, and the pan is supposed to be going to the CNC machine next week.

Basically they've engineered an integrated dry sump system, which should resemble Ferrari's and Dailey's. This will look cleaner (and hopefully work better) than the rat's nest of braided line that you see in an "add on" dry sump system.

We're redoing the front accessory drives now and dumping the OEM water cooled alternator, which really was an engineering abortion, in favor of a conventional air-cooled alternator. Also gone will be the P/S pump (we don't need no stinkin' P/S on a GT40!), and the conventional water pump, as I'm planning on one or possibly two electric water pumps, which will have more output than the weak OEM one, and be much easier to regulate with PWM technology. Once the dry sump and front drives are sorted, that's the short block finally done (after a year).

Then the heads will get freshened, my M73's roller valve train will get transplanted over to the M70, along with a set of Henry's roller cams, and the ITB's will go on up top. Fortunately all this top end work has been done before, so I'm not the guinea pig for it, as I was for the dry sump.

So hopefully this motor will start making some noise by Christmas (note I didn't say Christmas of which year, but both Henry's timeclock and mine are ticking, and we want to finish this thing and see it run before one of us dies of old age!)

 

[LondonBenji]

Dry sump system? Nice, are you planning on selling to others? Not wanting to get off topic but it would be nice if someone did this for the xUZ engine.... nice and shallow, uncomplicated.......

 

[cribbj]

Benji, RMS may already have something for the 1UZ.

If not, Dailey Engineering does new prototypes for around $10K, and that'll cover 3 of these. So get two of your deepest pocket friends together and go for it ;-)

 

[JustenGT8]

RMS has a magic dry sump setup for the UZ.....will cost you your 1st born though

 

[cribbj]

Here's a teaser pic I received on the dry sump system today.

At least I know it's in CAD........now what comes after CAD?

Why CAM of course ;-) Hope the chips will start flying soon.

One promising note, he's starting to talk about the ITB's so he's either as worn down about the dry sump as I am, or he's nearly finished.....

 

[pwclift]

Excuse me for butting in but , doesn't the Ferrari v12 sound so good , because they're "flat" (180 degree ) cranks?

 

[cribbj]

No need to be excused ;-)

Flat plane crank, different firing order, and an exhaust system that maximises the "Ferrari sound" all contribute to it.

I was in the UK today, and went to see a guy about a car, and may have found a different/better home for my V12 than a GT40 chassis. See the first pic below. He's modeled this prototype car after the Honda F1 car of the mid-60's, but figures with different nose cones & paint, he can make one look like a Lotus 49, an AAR Eagle, a Matra or even a Ferrari. Hmmmm.

And yes, that's a live chicken in the 2nd pic showing the chassis. When we went in the workshop, it was roosting in the cockpit of the prototype car........ If I look a bit uncomfortable sitting in it, it's because I wasn't sure what else was in there with me. Sorta gives a whole new meaning to the word cockpit.

BTW, those exhaust pipes on the prototype car are sand filled and bent, one piece primaries. That's a lost art these days, and I doubt that anyone in the USA is capable of doing it. The UK has always been, and still is the epicenter of motorsport engineering and fabrication.

We also visited the Donington Park circuit, which will be hosting the British GP from 2010 onward, and took a tour through the Donington Grand Prix car museum, which boasts the "largest collection of Grand Prix cars in the world"

Got to see some gorgeous cars and engines; the highlight of the cars had to be the AAR Eagle (not the '67 Belgian Grand Prix winner, unfortunately, which is still in a private collection), and the highlight of the engines was of course the BRM H16 motor. One in the car, and the spare alongside.

I know everyone here is a closet GP freak, so enjoy the photos:

 

[cribbj]

A few more of the Donington museum.

BTW, the turbos on that Cosworth GB motor were incredibly small. They looked to be about the same size, or perhaps even smaller than the twins on a TT Supra, but that little 1.5l V6 motor made 1000 HP and revved over 12,000 RPM

 

[rms]

You 'lucky beggar' John.

At the recent 'Tasman revival' historic race meeting, we had the 3 ltr V12 BRM in attendance as well as the rear engined 2.4ltr V6 Dino Ferrari open wheeler in the previous pic. Many cars from o/seas, one of which you may know John - 'Old Yaller'.

I had the honour of driving a BT21 Brabham in the 'demonstration'??? of genuine Tasman cars and through the generosity of the other 'pilotes ancien' was able to 'win'.

That BRM sounded glorious, even if they were hand grenades in their day.

Erol

 

[cribbj]

Well, after nearly two years of "patiently" waiting for the dry sump design to be designed and fabricated, I've told Henry to pull the plug on it. His machine shop has been jerking both of us around way too long, so we're going to cut our losses and bail.

I've contracted Bill Dailey (www.daileyengineering.com) to design and build a complete dry sump system for this motor, and he thinks he can get it done early in 2010. He's already done systems for the BMW inline six, V8 and V10 motors for the BMW factory, and he thinks the V12 will probably be similar to the I6.

The short block is done, so I've asked Henry to go ahead and get the heads finished while we're waiting for the dry sump.

Another casualty of the machine shop fiasco was Henry's intake manifold design for ITB's. The machine shop kept the CAD drawings for those, so it's back to square one on those now too.

I've also recently hooked up with a mechanical engineer who wants to put the V12 in SolidWorks, which will be a brilliant contribution to the V12 hotrodders over at kitcentral.com.

 

[cribbj]

This project has finally awakened and is moving again. Baby steps, but still steps.

Here are the ITB manifolds that are finally finished. These were the last hurdle for the top of the motor; now it's to get the dry sump system moving.

Bill Dailey has become busy with big OEM orders from GM & Ford, so my little one-off project isn't getting much love. Still, my SolidWorks buddy finally got the bottom of the block (mating surface for the oil pan) done. Once he finishes modeling the rest of the motor, the SolidWorks drawings will go into the public domain for anyone to use, free of charge.

 

[JustenGT8]

Very nice John. An ITB V12 is going to sound wild

 

[Crambo]

Mmmm, nice, what throttles? I've been offered 12 4AG but I like the Weber twin throat style and having less linkages to deal with.

 

[cribbj]

The ITB's will be TWM's or a variant. I like TWM's a lot because the fuel rails are on the inboard side, where they don't detract from the ITB's. Actually with the narrow 60 degree V12, it's tough to put anything inboard, but as you can see from the pics below, this design uses a single common fuel rail for both banks. Looks really clean, I think.

Here's a pic or three of what the engine should look like when finished. The ITB's are a real tight fit, and this is a SOHC motor! Don't know how we'd do it if it were DOHC. There's another pic down below showing the dual outboard fuel rails on a Ferrari, and IMO, the inboard rail looks much better.

We're going for the Gurney-Weslake V12 look, so the cam covers will be in black, and we'll keep the trumpets their natural aluminum color. Just tough to make a 6.0L motor look like a 3.5L, and of course, there's the little problem of making a 2 valve, SOHC BMW resemble the 4v DOHC Eagle. But as long as people don't get too close, it'll be good. At least the car will be midnight blue and wearing #36, hopefully in a year or two

 

[Crambo]

I like the look of the BMW, a bit Rolls Royce Merlin.
Funny, I was just looking at TWM stuff two nights ago.

 

[cribbj]

Yes, the front of the motor looks all Merlin doesn't it? The block is very deep.

My engine should look a little cleaner than this one, as it won't have that upper oil pan projecting out the right side, and it should have some better looking engine mounts.