473hp/376tq 3UZ-FE

[JBrady]

March edition of Modified Mag has a story on the Japanese GT Championship JGTC cars. The GT500 cars look to allow 3.0 turbo and 4.5 liter naturally aspirated factory style engines. I don't have the specifics on manifolding or camshafts or anything else that is needed to know how they make the rated power or even if the rated power is accurate. The power quoted is 473 horsepower @ 7600rpm and 376 torque @ 5600rpm at a 4,480cc displacement.

What does impress is that this is an FE engine which is Toyota's luxury engine designation and is not considered as favorable for power as the GE and GTE engines. This is due to the valve angles. The "F" engine have a narrow valve angle than that of the "G" engines. The wider angle appears to breath better and make more power. So, to have an "F" engine used in a race engine gives all of us encouragement for the naturally aspirated potentional of our engines.

Now, the GT300 class 1st place car is an Acura NSX with a 3.5 liter engine that is rated at 300hp and the number 2 car runs a Nissan VQ35DE engine (350Z engine) and is rated at 295hp @ 7400rpm and 290tq @ 5800rpm!!! This convinces me that at least in the 300 class the power ratings are pure BS. The production engines make more power than these ratings and the Nissan rating is obviously BS. 290tq at 5800rpm = 320hp and yet they rate the power at 295? Please.

So, is the 3UZ power correct? Underrated? Overrated? I need to find out more about this engine.

 

[R-Jay]

if there's one thing about nissan you have to learn, it's that they tend to underrate their power outputs.... or at least stay on the conservative side of things....

for example, the GTR's.... my brother owned a Series 3 98 model R33 V-Spec and that was rated at 280ps.... a drive in it tells you otherwise.... without mods, not even an exhaust, i can personally say it has in excess of 300hp easy.... same can be said with the toyota supra... also rated at 280ps (JDM) but a drive in one will tell you differently....

i remember reading an article from a magazine where they put a 93 model TT supra on the dyno (i know the arguments about varying dyno results so just bare with me) and it pulled the equivalent of the factory claimed hp.... this being about 2 years ago... which means either the engine suffered no wear at all in the 10 years it was in the car, or it had more to begin with than was said.

All the lies are to get around the "gentleman's agreement" the manufacturers had a coupla years ago.... i think it's getting scrapped now though they still have cars being underrated.

 

[928s]

I for 1 would love to see some more details on the 3uz-fe engine, does it have finger followers? Pics please.

Cheers Greg

 

[JBrady]

if there's one thing about nissan you have to learn, it's that they tend to underrate their power outputs.... or at least stay on the conservative side of things....

for example, the GTR's.... my brother owned a Series 3 98 model R33 V-Spec and that was rated at 280ps.... a drive in it tells you otherwise.... without mods, not even an exhaust, i can personally say it has in excess of 300hp easy.... same can be said with the toyota supra... also rated at 280ps (JDM) but a drive in one will tell you differently....

i remember reading an article from a magazine where they put a 93 model TT supra on the dyno (i know the arguments about varying dyno results so just bare with me) and it pulled the equivalent of the factory claimed hp.... this being about 2 years ago... which means either the engine suffered no wear at all in the 10 years it was in the car, or it had more to begin with than was said.

All the lies are to get around the "gentleman's agreement" the manufacturers had a coupla years ago.... i think it's getting scrapped now though they still have cars being underrated.

Isn't 280 the highest "official" power rating for JDM cars? USA spec Supras were 320hp. Nissan has multiple variants on there very capable VQ35DE engine starting at 240hp for the 3.5 SE Altima up to 300hp for the 350Z. The G35 sedan started with 260hp rating and the G35 coupe started with 280hp even though each vehicle seemed to have very similar performance. This years G35 sedan AND coupe both have 298hp with the manual transmission and 280hp with the automatics. So, yes, I agree that the factory ratings are arguable. That said my post is about RACE cars... and magazine "reporting" which while considered gospel by some falls far short on many occasions.

 

[JBrady]

I for 1 would love to see some more details on the 3uz-fe engine, does it have finger followers? Pics please.

Cheers Greg

The 3UZ has the same bucket followers as the 1UZ and 2UZ. The Modified Mag magazine didnt show any pictures.

 

[JBrady]

Not an engine pic but here is a brake shot.

http://www.urbanracer.com/gallery/g.../2004/GT_Live_JGTC_Practice_12-17-04/0183.jpg

 

[R-Jay]

ok you blew my argument away, hehe....

anyhow, bloody beaut brakes.... i'd sell a kidney for those AP brakes.... 6 up front with those 4 on the rear... that would be sweet.... though actually, i'm not too far off getting Endless 6 piston setups for my fronts (supra).

 

[turboandrew]

the 20 HP jump for the 2005 nissan/infiniti's is legitimate. They addedd vvti on the exhaust cams to get this. I would say Nissan is all over the map when it comes to HP ratings; some are just right, some are overrated, some are underrated.

 

[928s]

If it uses buckets, are they solid or hydraulic? I take it if they are shimmed they are solid? Also is this what makes them light and able to rev?
Thanks Greg

 

[Peewee]

FYI, In some peoples findings, FE heads are better than GE heads for NA applications.

They are starting to squeeze 250hp out of 4AFE's (or is it 7AFE's?).
Not bad for a 1.6L or 1.8L motor.

 

[SCV8]

Yes Peewee, I can see how that would come about, the real Toyota race engines(Champ Car), have very narrow valve angles, high ports.
I believe the GE motors have larger ports, same valve sizes as the FE, and are pretty much just a copy of an old Cosworth engine.

New Audi V8 puts out 420 hp@8,000rpm from 4.2 liters, wish Toyota would step up to the plate with goods like that.

 

[JBrady]

FYI, In some peoples findings, FE heads are better than GE heads for NA applications.

They are starting to squeeze 250hp out of 4AFE's (or is it 7AFE's?).
Not bad for a 1.6L or 1.8L motor.

Good point Peewee. Also consider that the 1998 Supra 2JZ-GE with VVTi was rated 225hp @ 6000rpm and 220tq @ 4000rpm. This is actually slightly less performance per liter than the 1998 VVTi 1UZ-FE found in the GS400 which is rated 300hp @ 6000rpm and 310tq @ 4000rpm.

Here is the per liter numbers:
2JZ-GE 75hp/liter, 73.3tq/liter
1UZ-FE 75hp/liter, 77.5tq/liter

I would say the 2JZ has better exhaust manifolds. I dont know the cam specs.

It is interesting that the REPORTED air flow on the 2 heads makes one believe that the GE is a better flowing head... but... in the above stock output comparison no advantage is seen.

 

[turboandrew]

Until the same person flows both heads, I honestly don't trust any comparisons between the two heads. I really doubt the later 1UZ and 3UZ have "bad" flowing heads, further supported by JBrady's note. Perhaps in stock form the original 1UZ heads are not so good.

FWIW, the 2JZGTE (note the "T") exhaust ports are very small and all sorts of "bent", but seem to still do well.

 

[Zuffen]

Whilst discussing heads and airflow, has anyone ever looked at head-swapping. It'as a bit like wife-swapping but the cylinder head always looks good in the morning.

The only Toyota engine I know a bit about is the 1UZ but is it possible to fit (or make fit) any other Toyota (or possibly Suzuki) head to our engines. I mention Suzuki as they have designed and built a lot of heads for Toyota over the years.

I don't expect it to be a direct bolt on but I do know people use BMW motorcycle heads on old A series BMC engines so things are possible.

There are some nice little high performing Toyota engines out there (don't ask me for a type number as I don't know or care) that may be worth looking at.

Most will see it as a dumb question but so did Carl Benz' neighbour when he was build an "automobile"!

If you don't think beyond the square you will always live within the square.

 

[turboandrew]

would be interesting to know the bore spacing on some of the newer vvtiL 4 bangers, maybe the heads would work. Even so, not sure how you would get two sets of heads on one V8 without one of then being a one-off "reverse" casting (so the intake/exhaust ports go in the right direction. I suppose you could flip a "stock" vvtiL head so the cam gear was in the back of the motor, then worry about making cams that have the gear in the front for that head. Now my head hurts

Now that I think about it, I would rather adapt the vvtiL valvetrain to the later 1UZ/3UZ heads if I wanted to go through the trouble.

 

[Zuffen]

T/A,

I think we're chasing valve angle as much as anything else.

I'm chasing some other stuff and am not familliar with other Toyota engines and figured there are wiser men than me out there.

What would it matter if one bank had the inlet on the outside and the other had them on the inside. With ITB's it wouldn't amtter.

The subject deserves looking at.

 

[Peewee]

I think we're chasing valve angle as much as anything else.

All FE heads have 22.5deg between the valves.
All GE heads have 45deg between the valves.

Was that what you were chasing?

 

[R-Jay]

weren't the 1uz heads designed by yamaha? i know they did the 2jz and the 4ag heads also....

 

[Zuffen]

Yes 45degree valve inclination would be miles better than the 22.5 we have.

And yes Yamaha did design the heads as with a lot of previous Toyota heads. It all started with the 2000GT when Yamaha designed and built the head. Interestingly Yamaha assembled all 351 2000GT's built.

Now th equestion is; could you adapt any of those 4 banger heads to our engines.

Step 1 would be look at bore spacings.

Step 2 would be check head gaskets to see if there is any likelyhood of things lining up.

Step 3 try a physical fit of a head on a 1UZ. I have a 1UZ with the heads off so that's a start.

I don't have the knowledge or resources to investigate the Toyota parts manuals but it could lead to something interesting. Peewee you seem to really know your Toyota stuff what are your thoughts?

 

[Peewee]

Yes 45degree valve inclination would be miles better than the 22.5 we have.

Only for FI.
For NA, the 22.5 is better.
For low power NA, GE is better, for hipo NA, FE is better.

Rumour has is that Yamaha has designed/helped design all GE heads.
The FE heads are Toyota designed I believe.