The Fish

Discussion in 'Forced Induction Tech (Members Only)' started by kc95sc400, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    Ok, so I've changed my setup quite a few times and I'm not sure which is best.

    Before I go into a whole lot of details on the different setups...when I had removed all the piping to run the above pictured setup, I had found some blockage in the pipes from the SC to the IC. I'd rather not say what it was (too embarrassing) but I assure you it was significant.

    Without the intercooler (above setup) my temps averaged 50-60 degrees above ambient temps. Add another 15+- degrees with 6-7 psi. Drivability was great. I had seen 10+ psi on accident at one point. I don't think fuel was an issue but I really didn't see what the AFR was when I hit the 10psi. No problems, keep in mind the ambient temps have been from 50-60 degrees lately.

    My ONLY concern with the setup is the high temps. More worried about what they will be in the summer. Otherwise, drivability and throttle response are awesome. Boost very easy to achieve. From everything I have read, 50-60 degrees above ambient is not bad at all. I've seen some people saying that they see temps upwards of 200 degrees above ambient. Do keep in mind that my temps are measured right before the throttle body, not in the manifold, which likely has higher temps.

    With the intercooler re-installed....my temps average a mere 12 degrees above ambient. Throttle response doesn't suffer very much. And on a test drive I made 8-9psi. Boost response is slower, boost is harder to achieve. Here's the biggest problem, drivability suffers quite a bit. With the IC and all the piping, the AFR surges rich while coasting. Without the IC, the fuel cut seemed to work great. The shift patterns of the transmission seem to change, for the worse. Without fuel compensation, the AFR is pig rich with boost.

    I am very torn on this whole thing. I really preferred the non IC setup as far as drivability, but I was always worried about what the temps were. Plus concerned about what the temps will be in the summer.

    Another thing to note, with the non IC setup, my temp sensor was installed into some of the metal piping before the throttle body. With my current IC setup, it's installed into plastic. Heat soak MIGHT be affecting the readings of the non IC setup.

    Please, if anyone has any input, suggestions, experience...please let me know. I'm thinking about going back to the non IC setup because the car is more fun to drive.

    Thanks,

    KC
     
  2. RedPhoenix

    RedPhoenix New Member

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    That show I plan on doing mine. I would do that and do water injection.
     
  3. RedPhoenix

    RedPhoenix New Member

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    Didnt see the last post. First off, I think we are all curious to ask what was the blockage? lol


    Anyways. On my setup, I basically planned on running the piping directly to the intake manifold, skipping a intercooler all together. Add water/alcohol injection into the mix and we got some nice low temps with great driveability.


    Also, can you snap a few pics of the body mod you had to make for the FISH to fit?

    -Matt
     
  4. stevechumo

    stevechumo Active Member

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    Well, if you run more than 9 psi, in theory and my experience is you must have the IC to be safe. Compressed air creates heat. The higher temp will more likely preignite and cause trouble, also with less oxygen and less power. However, since you run the SC set up, it's a lot less heat than the turbo like my set up. Even with the intercooler, a turbo can still cause the heat up to 200 degree like you mentioned. I've seen 250 degree with a turbo system. I'd say 150 degree is still good.

    In the past, I experimented the rubber heat hoses at Home Depot and installed them half way in the intake after the IC and guess what, they're almost melted and got so soft. In your set up, 50-60 degree is really good. Keep in mind the heat is also caused by the engine. If you can prevent the engine heat, then you might not need the IC at all.

    The reason you see slow boost is due to the piping route. You can actually increase the boost response by using smaller pipes before the IC.
     
  5. scotturnot

    scotturnot Member

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    Wouldnt a good Methanol Injection setup cure this?
     
  6. Lextreme

    Lextreme Just call me "Lex"

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    I dont think Methanol injection would be optimal for a centrifugal system. i would say reduce to a smaller intercooler would help. The whole advantage of having a centrifugal supercharger is intercooling.
     
  7. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    No, I don't care to say what the blockage was. Dumbness on my part is all you need to know.

    There is no way I could get a good pic of the body mod with the fuse box and supercharger in place. Even with them removed, I'm not sure it would be easy to see what had been done. It's not really a big deal, just be sure to have a couple of hammers and some paint/primer handy when your installing the bracket.

    KC
     

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  8. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    From what I have gathered, my temp increse is very good compared to some setups. About 50 degrees over ambient. With 7ish psi, it is only going up another 15 degrees or so.

    My setup with the IC has always been 2.5 from the supercharger to the IC and 3inch from the IC to the throttle body. I couldn't see going much smaller than the 2.5 inch.

    KC
     
  9. RedPhoenix

    RedPhoenix New Member

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    Fair enough :) Im assuming the bracket hits the body. happy hammer time :)
     
  10. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    OK, so I've spent another weekend playing with my car. Pipe routing in particular.

    After running the non IC setup for a few days, I decided to re-try the IC setup since I had removed my blockage problem.

    Impressions.

    Non IC setup #1. SC outlet (2.5 is the SC outlet size) into 3inch piping to the MAF, 3inch piping from the MAF to the throttle body. Great throttle reponse and boost comes much easier and quicker. 50 or so degrees above ambient without boost, another 15 degrees or so with 7psi. Ran great and fun to drive. The piping was not quite straight across and did sit in front of the radiator a bit. Great driveability.

    IC setup (after blockage removed). 2.5 inch piping to the intercooler, 3 inch from the IC to the MAF, from the MAF to the throttle body I used the stock intake tubing with the resonator section removed. Also, I used a silicone coupler in place of the factory coupler that joins the stock plastic intake to the MAF. Less boost and much harder to get boost. 12 degrees above ambient without boost. Slight increase in temp with boost. Less throttle response, but not too bad. When coasting, the AFR would go rich and flucuate a bit. Rich miss at idle at times. Driveability not nearly as good as the non IC setup.

    Non IC setup (current). 2.5 inch piping from the SC outlet. Goes from 2.5 to 3 inch right before the 90 that turns into the MAF. 3 inch piping from the MAF to the throttle body. I have a bunch of spare 2.5 inch couplers, so I installed them onto the exposed 2.5 inch pipe, figured they may block some of the heat. The path from the SC to the MAF is much straighter across and pretty much above the fan shroud. I have not driven the car with this setup as of this post, but I assume it will be about the same as my first non IC setup. Hopefully with a little less heat due to the spare couplers on the exposed pipe. Also, the 2.5 inch pipe has less surface area to absorb heat. Boost response may be slightly better due to the smaller diameter pipe. I would expect this setup to work well, I already have a concern though, even though I have yet to drive it. I pulled it out of the garage and let it warm up, ran fine. When it was fully warm and the idle dropped down, it started missing a little, and actually stalled once.
     
  11. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    ...continued from above post, hit submit instead of preview.

    If I continue to have idle issues with my current setup, it may be safe to assume that my car doen't like the 2.5 inch piping for some reason. Maybe there is too much turbulence where it's stepped up to 3 inch. I don't know.

    Either way, I have reset my ECU and will be driving the car to work in the morning so I should know.

    I have been considering a colder thermostat. Probably won't affect my IAT reading at all but would keep overall temps down.

    Interesting note. I was working on an 2000 Avalon the other day. I had it running about 20 minutes with the hood open. The ambient temp was 70 degrees and the Avalon's IAT reading was 120 degrees. Interesting. Avalons have the MAF/IAT sensor right after the airbox and the airbox has a snorkel that goes to the driver side fender well area.

    KC
     
  12. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    Once you get the LS400 bracket on the motor and you hold the fish bracket up to the motor, you'll have no doubt on what needs to be done.

    I cut a good chunk of my fish bracket off, it fit without cutting, but I couldn't put my finger inbetween the fish and the frame of the car.

    Are you installing soon?

    A couple of tips for anyone installing the fish. At very least, change your T-belt, to remove the hydro pump, you're half way there. And, T-belt changes will be harder after the SC is installed. Invest in a set of snap ring pliers to remove the AC pulley and clutch, makes installation of the fish so much easier. Consider a idler setup like the one I have, I'm using a 2.4 inch pulley (about 12psi with our crank size) and I have had no slipping issues. I had some belt wear due to pulley misalignment, but I fixed that and haven't had any problems with the belt since. I even did see 12psi once on accident.

    KC
     
  13. RedPhoenix

    RedPhoenix New Member

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    Thanks for the tips :)
     
  14. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    WTF!

    So with the new non IC setup, I have 2.5 pipe going to 3 inch before the MAF and then 3 inch to the throttle body.

    The car misses at idle and has even stalled on me a couple of times. Assuming nothing else has changed, as far as engine condition, the only thing I can think of is that too much turbulence is being created between the 2.5 inch and 3 inch pipes. And, the turbulence is screwing with the MAF signal.

    It's only a problem with warmed up idle, in gear. If I put it in park or neutral it idles fine. I suppose it could be the idle control valve.

    Before I jump to any conculsions, I am going to go back to the first non IC setup, which used all 3 inch pipe, and see if anything changes. If it does, great, if not, I guess I have another problem. It did idle fine with all three inch with the first setup.

    KC
     
  15. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    Do you have an aftermarket IAC? If so, where is it installed?

    Mine is about 6inches before the throttle body.

    KC

     
  16. stevechumo

    stevechumo Active Member

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    KC,
    Sorry to hear your car misfires. It shouldn't do that. I'm using the stock IAC with the MAF located behind the BOV. The IAC is in its original place. I used to have the engine stalled when I released the gas due to the BOV located behind the MAF. Putting the BOV behind makes my car run normal. I only boosted my car a little and there's no problem whatsoever. I connected the IAC to the plug right & under before the TB, as you can see the highlighted red line. This plug is used to provide the air source for the stock intake pipe. I used the barb adapter from 3/4" to 5/8" for this connection.
     
  17. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    Guys, long time no post.

    So I have probably tried more IC and non IC supercharged setups on the Lexus SC400 than anybody on the planet.

    1. There's my original IC setup.
    2. My original IC setup with a 2.5 inch straight pipe in place of the IC.
    3. Non intercooled setup with 2.5 inch all the way to the MAF.
    4. Non intercooled setup with 3.0 inch all the way to the MAF.
    5. Various non intercooled setups with the 2.5 to 3.0 inch transition being in different places.
    6. Probably a few others that are now a blur.

    Anyway, I think I've finally settled on a setup! Right now I am running with the IC but, a bit differently than I was originally.

    My current setup is like this (sorry, no pics yet) - the supercharger outlet is pointed towards the driver's side. From the outlet, 2.5 inch pipe turns towards the front of the car, runs under the headlight and then turns towards the passenger side of the car. The pipe continues through the AC lines for the reciever / drier, over the frame rail, into the IC. The IC is turned upside down from my original setup, the inlet and outlets are on the top. From the IC outlet, 2.5 inch pipe runs under the passenger side headlight and makes a turn towards the rear of the car. Directly after the headlight, the piping changes to 3.0 inch and goes to the MAF. I have the factory plastic intake (modded, the air chamber is removed) from the MAF to the throttle body.

    Don't know if that makes any sense, but I like the setup.

    I still have a few improvements to make to it. All my piping has been hacked from all the different setups I've tried, so this current setup is kind of thrown together. I am planning on ordering some more pipes and a few other bits that will improve it. I am confident that the changes I plan on making will make it even more awesome.

    There is a significant reduction in piping with this setup compared to my original IC setup. I tightened my throttle cable a bit and throttle response is not an issue in the slightest. I am seeing on average, without boost, 20 degrees over ambient. Compared to 15 degrees with my original IC setup and 60-70 degrees with the non IC setups. I also still have the cold air K@N setup. I am also currently seeing 9 or so psi fairly easily without any signs of running out of fuel, using the MAFTPro to ensure my AFR stays where I want it with boost. [​IMG]

    I will take some pics once I get my new piping and clean it all up a bit.

    I've been driving the car about a week or so with this IC setup, and I think that overall, this is the best one I've tried. There are some drawbacks with the IC and all the piping, the non IC setups were a little more fun to drive, but I was constantly worried about my intake temps, which took away that little extra fun.

    KC
     
  18. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    Mark (Blizzy) and I have been supporting each other with our projects for a while now. Now that I am finally confident in my cars capabilities, I decided to make some vids to clock my 0-60 and 45-65 times in the way that he has.

    In case you've missed Blizzy's thread.. http://clublexus.com/forums/showthre...hlight=madness

    I am very happy with the results so far. I am consistenly seeing 5's for 0-60. I did have 2 runs were I was in the 4.8 second range. I think with some more practice launching , I could get down a bit lower even. I also think that there is some time to shed with a proper bov / bypass setup and with the improvements I plan to make to my current IC setup.

    On to the vids.

    This is a 5.07 second run..
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=nC7a-TpcSXc

    A 5.13 second run..
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=aZ4hhUrUET0

    And just for fun, a 6.47 second run with the tires spinning all the way up to the 1-2 shift. When it shifted to second, the car was at about a 30 degree angle to the driver's side of my intended straight line.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=QdsU3Nvs3ZY

    I am super excited to be in the 5 second bracket. Let me know what you guys think.

    Also, I did one vid doing a 45-65 run and the time was about 2.5 seconds! The quality of the vid is poor, so I'll try and make another later to post.

    KC
     
  19. RedPhoenix

    RedPhoenix New Member

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    Wow... that is awesome! I cant wait to see more pics/vids!

    Good job, you have come a long way!
     
  20. kc95sc400

    kc95sc400 New Member

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    Thanks. I am honestly suprised to be in the 5 second range. I really think that with practice, I can get even lower times.

    I also think the tweaking I plan to do with my current intake / IC setup will make a significant difference.

    I hope to make a few more vids later today, I'll post them for sure.

    KC
     

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