Supercharged Supra

Discussion in 'Forced Induction Project' started by cribbj, May 19, 2007.

  1. Zuffen

    Zuffen Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks John,

    I'll PM you on the parts.
     
  2. SuperRunner

    SuperRunner New Member

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    I can't tell 100% from the posts, but you are running an AEM ecu?

    If so, have you got it running yet? You mind sharing your cal file?
     
  3. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep, I'll be running the AEM.

    I have a "base" cal file that Mitch Pederson from AEM did for me awhile back, but it's not tuned at all, nor is it guaranteed to run, because AFAIK, no one has a 1UZ running on the AEM yet.

    You're welcome to it for the same price I paid - nothing. So please don't try to sell it to anyone......

    PM me with your email address and I'll send it to you.
     
  4. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    Just a quickie update with some good news - the supercharger pulleys finally arrived yesterday afternoon from Richwood in Oz, so I'm heading over to the builder's shop this AM to get things lined up on finishing the motor:
    • Intake manifold needs to come off and get drilled & tapped for sensors
    • Supercharger needs mounting and aligning & we have to rig up a temporary belt tensioner since I still won't be running any accessories for the 2nd dyno.
    • Fuel system needs installing
    • Sensors need installing
    • Rewire everything again
    Dennis is still aiming to get the motor mechanically ready before Christmas, then I'll do the rewiring the week between Christmas & New Year.

    Then we should be ready to plug in the AEM and run when I get back home in Feb.
     
  5. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    I was just counting up the number of manifold pressure sensing points that I needed and was surprised there were so many:

    3/8 NPT for AIT sensor
    1/8 NPT for MAP sensor
    1/8 NPT for Bypass Valve for the supercharger
    1/8 NPT for Fuel Pressure Regulator
    1/4 NPT for Brake Booster
    1/8 NPT for Power Steering
    1/8 NPT for spare (boost gauge sensor, etc)

    I suppose 1-2 of these could be shared however I've always run a dedicated line to both the FPR and the brake booster, and I'm guessing the bypass valve should have its own dedicated line, and I've probably still forgotten one or two.

    I won't be running a PCV system, as I'll vent to filtered catch can(s), and then may run a line from that to the intake system.

    Hmm, do I really want to poke another hole for my boost gauge?

    That poor manifold is going to look like a porcupine soon with all the barbed nipples hanging off it ;-)

    Wonder if anyone makes a manifold pressure "manifold"? Something with 1-2 main ports that connect to the manifold, then a bunch of 1/8" and 1/4" nipples for the distribution?
     
  6. Cobolt

    Cobolt New Member

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    Yes it is fairly common to use few holes and distribution block(s) or have a similar arrangement as for the injectors in a fuel system, dimensioned right, it will work but some ppl have had pressure "lag" due to holes in the intake that are to small and a to large "distribution cavity" to change pressure in and the engine runs bad/spikes/misfires during fast changes in throttle. Such arrangements are most common for engines where you have individual throttlebodys per runner. Such engines should also have an electrical vaccum pump installed for pwr steering, brakebooster etc.

    With a large intake to use, you already have room for sensors and can easily get quality sensor readings.
    Some velds a reeinforcement plate on the side of the intake so they can drill holes closer together without cracking, if doing that, you can drill slightly oversized holes and then veld the two peices of metal together there aswell, with a good "angle job" (preparing for welding) on both metal edges (in the hole) so that the weld can go deep into both mateials, you can then drill out your intended hole size (for the sensors) in the surface of the weld. With both the edges of the plate and the holes welded into the intake material, you´ll get a really strong reeinforcement of the area and can put sensors fairly close if you´d like to.

    As you´ll supercharge, you´ll probably not run insane amounts of boost so intake cracking seems unlikely but still, do not drill all holes in good looking straight line.. ;) best for structural rigidity is to put sensors in different places so there are good sized chunks of metal between the drilled hole and another "hole" or weld seam, to get a nicer look, sensors can probably be placed under the intake.
     
  7. Cobolt

    Cobolt New Member

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    You can also drill an oversized hole and put a tube trough it (inside diameter as sensors) and weld it there from inside and outside the intake. For high boost, this is often combined with the reinforcement plate described above.
     
  8. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    Cheers Cobolt, some good thoughts there. I'm beginning to appreciate why Zuffen is planning to use the underside of his manifold for some of these.

    Now the latest problem/issue - I have all these nice Supra COP's, and the AEM to trigger them, but I need some ignitors, since the Supra COP's are dumb coils.

    The OEM Supra ignitor isn't a good choice since it doesn't like to be run in waste spark mode and needs an amplifier like the HKS DLI to work successfully.

    I'm tempted to try some generic Bosch ignitors such as the 4 coil 0 227 100 211 model. Anyone know if these are the dumb type or do they do dwell control? I wonder how fussy different ignitor and coil combo's are? Do Bosch ignitors speak Japanese? Or can the Supra's Denso coils sprecken zie Deutsche? Burning questions.....

    I must admit I'm also tempted to homebrew some VB921's, make my own ignitors, and save $200. And with my luck, this homebrew rig will probably last just long enough to get me into a cellphone dead zone....

    30 December Edit:
    Just to update this post, I ordered up some of the Bosch ignitors (which are the dumb variety I learned, so the dwell has to be controlled by the ECU), and I also ordered some Fairchild IGBT's to build my own ignitors if I get around to it. Apparently the VB921 IGBT's are giving problems in high dwell situations with the Megasquirt crowd, and they tend to let their smoke out occasionally. And as we all know, once you let the magic smoke out of an electronic device, that's it.

    Also, just to be on the safe side, I'm going to get in a set of (8) Tundra coils with integral ignitors.

    So I should have the following ignition combo's to test and fool around with:

    1. Supra coils with Bosch ignitors

    2. Supra coils with Cribbj built ignitors (not likely to be the final result)

    3. Tundra coils with integral ignitors

    4. Nissan VQ coils (350Z, etc.) with integral ignitors (the AEM wizard I'm working with is very high on these coils, but we're anticipating some fitment problems.)

    I purchased the Bosch pieces from 9Motorsport: http://stores.ebay.com/9Motorsport-...QsspagenameZADMEQ3aBQ3aEOIBSAQ3aUSQ3a60QQtZkm

    And the Fairchild IGBT's from RS-Autosport: http://www.rs-autosport.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=253

    Very good service from both the above. Here's some pics:

    [​IMG]

    This is the low power side of the Bosch that the ECU talks to:

    [​IMG]

    And the high power side which is connected to the coils:

    [​IMG]

    Here's a great connection diagram for the Bosch, courtesy of those nice people at MoTeC, who put lots of useful info like this in the public domain:

    [​IMG]

    The Fairchild IGBT; it's not current limited like the VB921's, so if we run too much dwell, the coils will fry. (I can't believe this little puppy is rated to pass 10 amps, but it requires a honker of a heat sink too....):

    [​IMG]

    That's an inch ruler by the way, so the actual chip is only around 3/8" square!
     
  9. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    Am preparing to mount the throttle body to the inlet elbow, and am looking for some ideas on how to open up the idle air bypass passageway. Maybe someone out there knows how it's done on a GM vehicle, 'cause that's what this TB is for?

    Here's a shot from the back of the TB showing the idle air passage.

    [​IMG]

    Option 1 to open this passage to the inlet tract is drilling a hole in my inlet elbow that sorta matches the idle air passage:

    [​IMG]

    Option 2 is grinding away this paper thin wall between the idle air passage and the back of the butterfly. This would also open the passage to the inlet system.

    [​IMG]

    I'm leaning toward Option 2 for sake of simplicity - any thoughts or opinions why this would be a bad idea? Frankly I don't know why GM left that thin wall there at all.
     
  10. pwd

    pwd New Member

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    For your TB, you would be best with option 2. If you want to use a different TB some time later you still have a good intake box that hasnt been modified.


    For your vacuum lines run them to a distribution block. And your boost reference lines from the manifold.

    There is no need to have so many holes where you dont need them, thats what I did for mine anyway, works well for me.

    Looking forward to seeing it finished and what results you get John.:biggthumpup: :biggthumpup:
     
  11. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    Great, that's three votes for Option 2. Great minds think alike ;-)

    If I can find a distribution block locally, I may go ahead and use it for the non critical stuff. That, or put some of these nipples in the bottom of the manifold. Hope I never have to fix a popped hose from the bottom of the manifold though.....

    Thanks for the interest & support.
     
  12. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    OK, I cut open that slot but was careful to stop the cut before I went past where the butterfly seats. Probably wouldn't be cool to have an uncontrolled air leak around the butterfly ;-)

    Just as a side note, in handling this TB, I'm really disappointed at the quality of the casting in comparison to the Toyota (Aisin) castings. This thing is full of porosity and casting slag.

    I certainly hope the General is casting his heads and blocks better than these accessories.....
     
  13. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, the motor is finally mechanically ready for the dyno, except for sourcing & mounting the serp belt. Dennis finished mounting the SC, fuel system and alternator today, and I'm leaving for Algeria on Monday, so I'll get it all wired up when I get back in early Feb.

    Here are some pics; we're leaving the P/S pump and A/C off for the dyno session, and I'll also be using a timing belt idler in place of the standard idler, which is too big and fouls the water inlet. The alternator is sporting its new 8 rib pulley, and some may notice that its lower mount is spaced away from the block - we did this to keep the serp belt from interfering with the water inlet elbow. As I had a spare front water bridge, Dennis cut the outlet nipple off and rewelded it to avoid any belt interference for the dyno setup.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. pwd

    pwd New Member

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    Looks great John, what boost are you going to run for now and do you intend to go higher later?
     
  15. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    For now, I have the 91mm pulley on there to see if it'll clear the hood, and I also bought a 78mm from Andrew if the 91 doesn't work out. So it looks like around 13-15 psi to start, and maybe 18-20 psi with the smaller.

    BTW, I'm running an 8 rib dampner that Andrew (Richwood) made up for me, which is 157mm OD.

    Back on the subject of dual port actuators for the bypass valve, I did finally find one at Whipple, and after some conversations with Dustin Whipple we both think it'll do what I want, so I'm going to see about procuring one for testing.

    Haven't seen an update from you in awhile; are you up & running? Which pulleys are you running and how much boost are you seeing?
     
  16. pwd

    pwd New Member

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    It is running and going reasonably well. Developed a small midrange miss which we havent solved yet, and leading up to Christmas I was too busy to spend the time finding. Will have some dyno time in the next couple of weeks too check a few things, hopefully sort the miss out.

    Andrew set me up a 110mm top pulley to start with, but it wouldnt clear the hood, so he reduced that to 93mm and turned a spare crank pulley down to 135 from the original 145mm. So when it gets over the miss it pulls very strongly up to nearly 9lb on the temporary boost gauge I fitted.

    When I am ready to go for more boost I just need to change my crank pulley back to the original one. Overall I am pretty happy, just need to solve this miss.
     
  17. scotturnot

    scotturnot New Member

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    Wow, the whipple Supercharger must be leaps ahead of my re-flowed eaton. I may look at one of them.
     
  18. Lextreme

    Lextreme Just call me "Lex"

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    Awesome John... Just awesome.... The whipple looks fantastic. Very jealous with the twin screw. Richwood just emailed me with some interesting pictures. I need to ask him before I can disclose them. Eye popping and jaw dropping is all I can say right now.
     
  19. cribbj

    cribbj "Supra" Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks, it's actually an Opcon-Autorotor on there, which is a close cousin to the Whipple, but more robust according to the parent company, and Kenne Bell who repackaged the O-A's for years.

    Evidently O-A have gotten out of the consumer supercharger market, and left it to their subsidiary Lysholm (better known as Whipple in the US), so now both Kenne Bell and Whipple are packaging the same supercharger. It'll be interesting to see how they square off now, because for years, Kenne Bell have been singing the praises of their supercharger vs the "other" twinscrew that Whipple sell.

    Scott, one of the nice things about these Opcons (or the Whipples) is the packaging. They actually put a larger displacement supercharger in a smaller package than the Cobra supercharger from Eaton. Of course there's not a built in bypass valve like the Eaton, it's external for the Opcon, but that by itself saves a BUNCH of space.
     
  20. Vander

    Vander New Member

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    current status?
     

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