LPG

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Lextreme II

Just call me "Lex"
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Guys,

This is going to be a very interesting topic since the gas price is going up. I was thinking about Natural Gas conversion. Couple of things to consider would be:

Compression
Coating
Valves
Injectors
ECU
and others.

Please add your comments and see if this would be possible or not. Here is an interesting Land Cruiser (2UZFE) LPG Conversion
 
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Here is a good FAQ from http://www.amsautogas.com/faq.htm

What types of vehicles can be converted to run on Autogas?
Most four stroke spark ignition engines can be converted to Autogas, this ranges from older carburettor vehicles to modern fuel-injected vehicles, with or without catalytic converters, and 'closed loop' fuel injection systems. Modern petrol vehicles from 1996 are particularly suited to conversion

Where can I fill up with Autogas?
There is a fast increasing list of filling stations around the UK and a daily updated list can be found from the Liquified Pertroleum Gas Association's website www.lpga.co.uk . With the recent increases in in petrol and diesel prices, gas stations are starting to appear more frequently and most major Gas/Oil companies have big plans for the forthcoming years. A nationwide map is supplied as part of the conversion documentation.

What if I can't find a local Autogas supplier?
Dependent upon space available and local restrictions, it can be very straight forward to have your own Autogas supply. A typical example would be a 1200 litre tank which can be mounted on concrete hardstanding 3m x 3m for a cost of £200.00 dependant on fuel supplier. This has the added advantage of lowering the Autogas cost per ltr. Its best to contact local authorities but normally planning permission is not required. Calor Autogas supplies 0345 661111

How easy is Autogas to use as a motor fuel?
Carburettor vehicles can start on either petrol or Autogas. Switching from Autogas to petrol whilst on the move is easy. Injection vehicles can be started with the Autogas changeover switch left permanently on the Autogas position as the system automatically starts the vehicle on petrol and changes over to Autogas and will switch back to petrol if the gas runs out.

How safe is the Autogas system when fitted?
Due to the fact that Autogas is stored under pressure the tank is much stronger and can survive greater impacts than a petrol or diesel tank. In the event of a serious accident the tank and associated Autogas pipes are protected with numerous safety devices, electronic and mechanical, to prevent and control the escape of the Autogas should a pipe be severed. If the vehicle should catch fire in the event of an accident then the Autogas tank is designed to control its pressure via a pressure relief valve saving the tank from rupturing and causing further damage.

What happens if I run out of either petrol or Autogas?
If you run out of petrol the system can be run and started safely on Autogas, and if you run out of Autogas, just press the switch and you are back running on petrol. There is an automatic change over on sequential gas injection systems.

Will I lose performance?
The conversion to autogas is not a performance aid, due mainly to its lower calorific value, engine power will be reduced by around 5% which is barely detectable.

How many miles will I get to the gallon?
Due to autogas having a 20% lower calorific value than petrol you will expect to see a reduction in MPG (Range Rover 3.9 does 17MPG on petrol or 14 MPG on Autogas) which still represents a significant saving of around 40% compared to petrol.

How do I know how much Autogas is left in the tank?
Built into the changeover switch is an LED gauge display, which will indicate the tank contents.

Where can the tank go, and will I lose boot space?
Unfortunately one draw back of an Autogas conversion is that an Autogas tank will have to be installed, usually in the vehicle load area. Autogas tanks are available in a vast range of sizes to suit most vehicles these can be matched to your particular requirements of space and expected mileage range. Some conversions use a petrol tank and Autogas tank option to fit in place of original petrol tank, this type however is vehicle specific.

Are there any special servicing requirements?
Your usual garage can continue to carry out your servicing and repairs provided no adjustments or removal of the Autogas system are required. Only fully trained Autogas engineers should work on the autogas system. We are a fully operational MOT testing station, with many years experience of servicing and repairs, and can fully satisfy these requirements as well as the Autogas repairs where required.

Can autogas damage my engine?
No, In fact because Autogas is a cleaner burning fuel engine life is extended and less maintenance is required. The one exception is engines running on leaded petrol as Autogas contains no lead, modification to the valve seats would be required.

What about vehicle warranty?
There is no reason for it to affect the vehicle warranty, however if the vehicle is under warranty it needs to be checked. The Autogas system itself is warranted and some of our systems now carry a two year component warranty with opptions to buy a three year parts and labour warranty for that extra peace of mind.

What is going to happen to the price of autogas in the future?
Currently the cost is about 48p per litre, and the government is committed to maintaining the differential between autogas and petrol. Unlike the 70's the environment will continue to be high on the political agenda. Autogas is a cleaner running fuel, being produced as a byproduct of other products cannot be ignored.

What happens when I sell my vehicle?
In the future as availabilty of Autogas increases you may well find that you will be able to sell your vehicle at a much higher premium. The Autogas tanks life is 10 years, and the 'Front End' components are calibrated with the aid of a lap top computer by our installers, and so are quite literally matched to the car. So once having made the investment in a Autogas kit you can continue to reep the benefits for many years.
 
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David, I just posted this about LPG.

I wouldn't take an existing fuel injected vehicle and put an LPG mixer on it - that's a big step backwards. First, you're introducing a restrictor (the mixer) on the intake of the motor - that will reduce the power and the VE of the motor. Secondly, you're reducing the volume of air the engine is taking in by mixing fuel with it before the intake manifold - this is another reduction of the VE. These are some of the reasons why LPG retrofits have had a bad reputation for reducing fuel economy and power of an engine.

There are some great LPG injection systems on the market now, so if the vehicle currently has a gasoline injection system, then give it an LPG injection system.

Compression - because LPG has a much higher octane rating, we can run much higher compression. It's like being in the 60's all over again, but with much better technology. 11:1 is no problem - even 12:1 is probably OK.

Valves and seat recession are always a concern with LPG. Keep the fuel mixture at stoich (use a wideband lambda sensor), optimise the ignition timing for LPG, and run an upper cylinder lubricant like Flash Lube, and seat recession shouldn't be a problem with a contemporary engine.

Injectors: standard gasoline injectors will not handle dry gas injection at all. Specialised gas injectors are available from 3-4 different companies; IMO the best ones are the Keihin gas injectors, which are sold by Prins of Holland. The Italian injectors look like flimsy junk in comparison to the Keihins.

ECU's: There's no reason why a standalone ECU like a Wolf/Link/AEM/MoTeC, etc. can't be mapped to fire LPG injectors, assuming it has the right drivers. Keihin LPG injectors are very low impedance units, and will require true P&H drivers on the ECU side. None of this resistor box nonsense......

All the information given in that Autogas FAQ is true for the UK and continental Europe, but little of it applies to the US because of our archaic restrictions on fitting aftermarket LPG systems to existing vehicles. We need some politicians in Washington who can think out of the box in order to relax these restrictions.

Sure, there will always be a few Bubba's who will try to run their Holley 4 bbl's from their BBQ bottles, and plumb it all up with radiator hose and worm clamps, but hopefully most people will know better than this.......
 
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David, I would start looking around on California's DOT or DPS websites and investigating what the restrictions are on LPG conversions. Or better yet, "if" you can find a business that still does LPG conversions, ask them for some help with the compliance issues. Typical businesses would be the local dealer/distributors for residential propane.


Here in TX, I think I've found a loop hole or two in the law that will allow my LPG conversion, but I don't know if these exist in Cali.
 
The conversion is still definitely worth it. My Landcruiser is the same model as shown above, except it has the six, not the V8. The existing fuel tanks (main and reserve) are retained, with two gas (LPG) saddle tanks fitted under the passenger floor area. This has increased the vehicles total range (mileage).The LPG filler is located in the same location as for petrol (behind the filler flap or door.) I have not noticed any real loss of power, but the mileage on LPG is less. Who cares, when LPG costs me 72cents/litre and ULP is nearly AU$1.50. The main drawback with LPG is that with high ambient temps the pressure in the tanks increases to the point where they won't fill. This requires filling them early morning while the ambient is still low, but once used you have to run on petrol. Too bad if you're running straight LPG (you're stranded.) This is not a problem in a more temperate climate. A gas injection system is definitely the way to go but is not widely available yet.
 
John,

I am not worry about the Laws in California. I am reading alot about LPG and so its an option for us as an alternative source of energy. However, California is very weak on supporting LPG.
 
The book "Propane fuel conversions" by Jay Storer has some interesting info. The author has two '32 Ford street rods , one running a turboed 300cu six, and the other a turboed 302 V8 ( both Fords). Reading the book I was under the impression that LPG was more widely available in the US, but apparently not.
 
Deuce, the LPG installers were doing a windfall business in conversions back in the 70's during the multiple gasoline crises, however sometime after that, probably in the 90's Washington overregulated the industry which put them out of business. The stated goal was to clean up the air in the US and to prevent owners from meddling with the pollution controls on their cars, however the methodology did just the opposite.

Perhaps too many Bubba's immolated themselves with their BBQ bottle LPG conversions, or perhaps big oil just didn't want LPG competing?

Regardless, the LPG infrastructure is still intact, and nearly every city over 100K in population still has 1-2 LPG filling stations, although they're usually for state or county service vehicles, busses, etc. The whole industry is still here and just waiting for some relaxation in the archaic regulations in order to take off again.

Late last year Roush (of Mustang and NASCAR fame) stepped up to the plate and made the investments necessary to get EPA certification for their Ford F150 conversions (actually they're using an LPG conversion from Icom of Italy), and they seem to be doing OK, however it takes deep pockets these days to do that, and there are no tax incentives yet, (as there used to be) for individuals to get their vehicles converted. The real kicker (for individuals) is that Roush are charging $6500 for a conversion that could be done anywhere in Europe for about half that price. Here's a snapshot of what people are saying about it - be sure to read the blog following the press release to see how "well informed" most Americans are about LPG these days: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/13/roush-introduces-a-propane-powered-f-150/

I look around at the resources being p*ssed away on technologies like hydrogen, CNG, and even ethanol, and wonder why LPG seems to have been forgotten? Shoot there is no infrastructure existing in the US to distribute hydrogen or CNG, but our politicians claim it has a bright future? All of the infrastructure to distribute, sell and use LPG already exists, but you can't legally buy a conversion for your car? Is that logical?
 
I have been searching for certified installer in California but no search luck. I guess perhaps it will open few doors for possible automotive business. However, getting info is very tough especially in Cali. John has been a great help. I found this orginization which is about 1 mile from where I live http://cngvc.org I tried to call but no response.

From my readings, LPG is pretty safe and we can save up to 40% of our month gas bill. That is great news if you are driving a V8. So far, UK, Europe and Australia are the leading countries to support LPG.

From what I gather, a complete kit would be around $1500-$1700 USD. However, getting it install properly and certify would be very difficult. Otherwise, I would love to do this conversion.

Another source to look for would be RV industry...

Here is what I found:

Retrofit systems are after-market conversion kits that allow a gasoline or diesel-fueled engine to run on an alternative fuel, usually natural gas or propane. Most require a qualified automotive mechanic to install.

According to the California Air Resources Board (CARB):

"Under current California regulations, conversion of emission-controlled vehicles with retrofit systems to operate on alternative fuels, such as propane and natural gas, in lieu of the original gasoline or diesel fuel is only allowed if the retrofit systems have been evaluated and certified by the Air Resources Board. The certification must be obtained by the manufacturer of the retrofit system and is issued by the Air Resources Board once the manufacturer demonstrates compliance with the emission, warranty, and durability requirements."



To view CARB's list of certified retrofit systems for 1994 and newer model-year vehicles (latest information is from October 2002).


If you Cali people would like to know more about filling station.
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