Project Thread Supercharged Supra

[cribbj]

COP Wiring for Waste Spark

Pretty basic question, should the coils be wired in parallel or series? Apparently people do it both ways and it works.

Parallel wiring halves the impedance and doubles the charging current, which the Ford EDIS module may not like.

Series wiring doubles the impedance and halves the current, so the EDIS will be happy, but it may not put out the spark required....

Apparently M&W, MoTeC, Autronic and other respected EMS mfg's advocate wiring the coils in parallel, while the DIY'ers like MS and others do it in series.

I've got mine wired in parallel now, so we'll see if the EDIS module works OK.

 

[cribbj]

Houston we have IGNITION!

What do you get when you cross one slightly eccentric, over the hill engineer, with a newly built ignition system that needs to be tested, an electric drill, and some new found uses for expanding test plugs?

Cribbj's ignition simulator.

Here's the 36-1 trigger wheel chucked up on a 1 1/4" expanding test plug and in my 1/2" drill motor. Pay no attention to the goober holding the drill.



No, we don't want to grind the pickup down, but if you get that sucker within 1/4" of the wheel, the magnet in the pickup wants to draw it right in.



Here's the plug in normal lighting, with no spark



And here it is in the dark. Voila, a nice little blue spark jumping across this Iridium plug:



I also confirmed the other plugs were firing as per sequence. I also confirmed that if the leads are reversed on the pickup, the EDIS won't fire, so polarity is important (Brett, if you're reading this, my apologies.....)

The EDIS seemed happy during the test. No overheating at all, in fact its case didn't even feel warm to the touch.

 

[rms]

What do you get when you cross one slightly eccentric, over the hill engineer, with a newly built ignition system that needs to be tested, an electric drill, and some new found uses for expanding test plugs?

Oh no .......... not another chainsaw massacre about to happen !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cribbj]

Hehe, "Crazed hotrodder barricades self in garage with family hostages"

Police attempted to communicate with him, but he shouted 'I've got an EDIS, a 36 tooth laser cut trigger wheel and a 1/2" drill!'

The bomb squad are now attempting to determine what sort of incendiary device this EDIS is, and what kind of remote trigger wheel mechanism is being used as a detonator.

Live footage at five on this developing story........

 

[Lextreme II]

John,

You are awesome.... Love your creativity. You should do a video and post it in U-Tube.

 

[Deuce]

Nice to be able to put a face to the name.

 

[cribbj]

Well, back around the 10th of Sept I was working 'round the clock to get this motor ready to dyno before I left to go back to Algeria. I made my own personal deadline and it was ready on the 11th, but the owner of the dyno just couldn't squeeze me in. We're now scheduled for the last week in October when I get back home.

Here's some pics of it - Sideshow or Dr. Tweak, if you see these pics, please be gentle about the wiring job; I rushed through it, knowing the loom was only for testing, and it'll be binned afterward. Also the COP's are just sitting there without any support, but hopefully I'll have them mounted properly next time.

As it sits in these pics, it'll run with only a connection to a 12v battery, and three control wires, one to turn power on to the ignition, and two to hit the starting relay. No ECU required! That's the beauty of a carb and a standalone ignition. I was thinking about trying to "bump" it just before these pics were taken, but I didn't have the flexplate on the motor... Dohhh. The starter ran fine, however ;-)

I've got the coolant In/Out plumbed temporarily with 3/4" garden hose connections as I'll be circulating 100 degree C coolant through the motor prior to firing it. I'll also do the same thing with the oil - I have an external oil pump and will prelube the motor with oil at 80-100 degrees C before we fire it. Probably OTT, but I'm not only a bit eccentric, but also paranoid after ruining a motor once before.

 

[mycarhasposessedme]

Awesome work John.
What a beast you'll have when its all together.
You are however setting the bench mark way to high for most of us mere mortals to even aspire to.
I think at the very least you should put some greasy hand marks all over it and put the rusty old bolts back on. lol.
Nice work mate.
Cheers.

 

[mshawari1]

but why you chang the crank pully ??

 

[cribbj]

Cheers Trev, you know how it is - you get a greasy handprint on something and it stands out like a sore thumb and works on you subconsciously, and before you know it, you're pulling the part off and cleaning it again. I'm not a compulsive hand washer though, really....I only wash my hands about every five minutes.....LOL.

Mshawari, the new crank pulley is an 8 rib design instead of the standard 6 rib because of the supercharger that will go on in the future. I'll not be boosting too high, but wanted to avoid any possibility of belt slippage, so this 8 rib pulley is insurance. Andrew at Richwood made a complete pulley set for me, so the alternator, P/S pump, A/C compressor, idler & tensioner, and of course the SC will all be wearing new pulleys when I'm finished.

 

[Thermactor]

Cheers Trev, you know how it is - you get a greasy handprint on something and it stands out like a sore thumb and works on you subconsciously, and before you know it, you're pulling the part off and cleaning it again. I'm not a compulsive hand washer though, really....I only wash my hands about every five minutes.....LOL.

Mshawari, the new crank pulley is an 8 rib design instead of the standard 6 rib because of the supercharger that will go on in the future. I'll not be boosting too high, but wanted to avoid any possibility of belt slippage, so this 8 rib pulley is insurance. Andrew at Richwood made a complete pulley set for me, so the alternator, P/S pump, A/C compressor, idler & tensioner, and of course the SC will all be wearing new pulleys when I'm finished.

ooooooh, how much did the 8 rib set run you? I can see a lot of us needing them in the future, including meself!

 

[cribbj]

Wish I could remember how much the set was, but at the time, Andrew & I were swapping this for that and charging & crediting, so the cost of the set got lost in the shuffle. As I recall, for a complete, new set of one-off pulleys, it was very reasonable.

The dampner pulley looks and fits like the OEM, and of course is still a complete dampner, and the rest of them are machined out of 7075 ally. Haven't pulled the old pulleys off anything yet, or repressed the new ones on, but they look the business. Very nicely done, as we've come to expect from Richwood. I think an 8 rib pulley set would be a great idea for a group buy - drop Andrew an email: [email protected]

Here's a couple closeup pics of the new & old dampners: (Edit: I just noticed in the 2nd pic, the new dampner looks like it's stepped out from the block further than the old one, but that's only camera angle playing tricks. Also, when I get back home in 2 weeks, I'll pull the rest of the new pulleys out and take photos of them)

 

[Thermactor]

Top quality work there. Thank you so much for the pictures, I appreciate what you do to help us out here!

 

[cribbj]

Thermactor, that's what this site is all about - sharing knowledge and helping each other, not trying to make a quick buck.

 

[Thermactor]

I e-mailed Andrew and he said that they already produce the pulleys for the 1UZ but when I e-mailed back and asked how much, he didn't respond. Since I can't find any website of theirs with pricing info we're stuck. Maybe Lex can obtain a set and have his Asian connections reproduce them on the cheap?

 

[cribbj]

Need some advise from an ignition guru.

When I tested the waste spark, COP ignition setup on this motor last month, I had spark, but I wasn't that impressed with the apparent power of the spark.

I'm accustomed to seeing a blue-white ball of fire at the plug gap, and a loud SNAP when it arcs. What I had was a reddish blue spark, which was audible, but definitely not the snap I wanted to hear. At the time, I chalked it up to my dodgy test setup, but now I'm not so sure.

These coilpacks are from the 2JZ-GTE Supra, which comes with a really good, fully sequential (non-waste spark) OEM COP system. Those of us who have fitted an aftermarket ECU with waste spark ignition to the motor, and have tried to use the OEM ignition setup, have had problems with weak spark, and have had to add an ignition booster such as the HKS Twinpower DLI.

We had originally attributed the weak spark problems to the Supra's "smart" external ignitor module, which normally provides spark feedback to the OEM ECU in order that the magnitude and duration of the dwell current to the coils could be optimised.

With the ignition setup I'm running on this 1UZ, there is no separate ignitor, and the Ford EDIS8 module functions as both the controller and ignitor, and it appears the problem of a weak spark may be back.

So I have two conclusions for the apparent weak spark:

1) With the Supra coils connected in parallel (waste spark), I have halved the impedance, and should have doubled the charging current in each output of the EDIS8, however there are probably current limiting circuits in this module to prevent frying the coils. Hence, I'm probably only getting half the normal current to each coil.

2) Along with the current limiting above, perhaps the coils cannot charge sufficiently between ignition events, as they're being asked to fire twice as often with this waste spark setup, as in the OEM setup.

At this point I'm considering doing several things:

1) Running the system as is, and hope it's strong enough for breaking the motor in at fairly low BMEP levels.

2) Boosting the primary voltage to the coils from 12v to 18 or 24v.

3) Getting another EDIS8 module and connecting the two in parallel.

4) Changing coilpacks? (I wonder how coilpacks with integral ignitors would run in this system? With internal ignitors, the EDIS module would only be switching the control on/off to the ignitors, not the main charging current, and maybe it would confuse the EDIS, and perhaps fry the coils?)

Any comments or advise are welcome.

 

[cribbj]

Well, after some discussions with a couple of EDIS guru's, I'm not the first to try this, nor the first to have this problem. Apparently the EDIS has a current limiting feature, as do most ignitors, which clamps the charging current between 6.0 and 7.0 amperes.

So if you double the load in a circuit, by connecting another coil in parallel, the EDIS is still going to feed the circuit with 6-7 amps maximum, so neither coil will get properly charged, and both will produce weak sparks. Depending on the impedance of the coils, it may be possible to connect them in series and avoid this problem at low RPM's, however then there's the problem of shortened dwell time at high rpm, and when the coils are in series, each is being charged with only half the voltage, so they'll take longer to charge.

I had thought one solution might be to increase the voltage of the system to 18 or 24 volts with a KenneBell Boost-a-Spark or similar, however another less expensive solution was suggested by an EDIS expert.

He advised connecting a 2nd EDIS in a quasi-parallel arrangement with the 1st, such that both EDIS's were receiving the same signal from the VR sensor, and the same SAW signal from the controller (either a MS, or in my case the MJLJ), however each of the outputs would only connect to a single coil. In this way each of the coils would have full voltage and full current.

So for now, I'm going to leave my system "as is" but I'll have a 2nd EDIS module ready to wire in, if/when the motor falls on its face on the dyno.

Here's a schematic of how I have the setup wired now (Note: these EDIS's fire the coils in ABCD order):


And here's how it'll be with the 2nd EDIS (and the coils will be fired AA/BB/CC/DD):

 

[cribbj]

I've been playing with a new toy this afternoon and had to post a few pics. I bought an electronic hanging scale last month, and all I can say is that this thing is soooooo cool, and it was only $180.

So, here's my motor hanging on the engine hoist:



And here's the load cell for the weight indicator:



And the weight in pounds:



And kilos:



As this thing is accurate to within 0.2 lbs, we can say the 1UZ without any of the driven accessories, or flywheel, or flexplate, weighs pretty close to 400 lbs or 180 kg's.

This thing does all kinds of neat stuff - for example it can be zeroed with nothing hanging on it, or a full motor hanging on it. It also has a cumulative memory mode where if you want to weigh a hanging motor, then put it down and weigh each additional component separately, it'll do that and give you a running total and/or a grand total. It does gross, net & tare weights, and it has a serial output for either a printer or a PC. It goes up to 1000 lbs, and has 1.5x that in overrange capability.

I think it's a really slick tool, but my wife thinks I've gone over the edge now, getting excited about a set of scales.....

 

[LondonBenji]

At the point they understand us and our gadgets we'll make the effort to understand about them about their handbag and shoes obsessions....

Sod it, looks good!

Seriously, your house looks beautiful!

 

[cribbj]

Thanks Benji; well we're off to see the dyno wizard tomorrow. The motor is loaded up and tied down in the back of one of the Suburbans, and I just hope the single EDIS is man enough to spark it, otherwise I'll be rewiring it from a stepladder....