Standalone ECU Stand Alone (Part II)

[The Witzl]

Lets just say that the thing which seperates one ECU from another is not a specification which can be written down. You won't even find variables for it in the ECU software. A few ECU's have it - most don't. That will be all I am writing on the subject.

i dont think that could have been said any better KDog!!
This above reason is what i have been unable to explain as my reason for resting my decision on an Autronic SM4.

Plus - my tuner is best versed with the Autronic..... and after all - what good is a supercomputer if you have a monkey controlling it??

 

[cyberdiamond]

Anyone who knows me know I am not biased. There are reasons that I prefer the Autronic to other ECU's. Lets just say that the thing which seperates one ECU from another is not a specification which can be written down. You won't even find variables for it in the ECU software. A few ECU's have it - most don't. That will be all I am writing on the subject.

Why not give the extra bit of detail to help out?
I thought that was the whole point of forum boards.
You may have your reasons (trade secrets etc)???


Its very hard to make an informed desicion without all the facts.

 

[KDog]

It's difficult to explain in detail without the vast experience in thermodynamics.
Fortunately for myself and Richard Aubert (the designer and brains of autronic and formerly motec) we have degrees in Physcis. Anything above the basic version is trade secrets and therefore I am not at liberty to explain (read I can't remember the finer details anymore).

Basic version - all engines are the same. They all conform to the same model (even large F/I drag monsters), the more accurate your engine model is the better your ECU will run and engine. Autronics engine model is good enough that it can run an engine with only a single Full load site tuned in! The worse your engine model the more features you need to make up for it. Interpolation doesn't cut it in these stakes.

 

[SprinterTRD]

Kdog
I think you are way off, without interpolation your one full load site tune would never work, how else would you calculate the fuel/spark required at 5626 rpm and 52.5% load?

 

[MaxPower]

Once again kdog we need more info!! If i read your post correctly your saying that the autronic can predict the required fuel/spark at a particular load point using control algorithms that define an engine operating model?? If thats right then it must have some power on board to do it in real-time and i would not have thought any aftermarket (or OEM for that matter) ECUs could acheive it - my desktop PC takes a while to develop a VE table when given the engine specs, and what it spits out is only a rough starting point anyway. If it can do this then it really is a superior ECU, very cool indeed.

If you are talking about the auto-tune feature that autronic can have then that is a different ball game, thats just a PID routine using the O2 sensor to trim the fuel. It requires far less CPU power to do this and is in fact used on any ECU that has a form of closed loop (idle control, fuel trim etc). Some ECUs alow the PID loop to have adjustable control properties, some just use set values to make life easier.

Interpolation is a different game again, iam sure the autronic will still use this but you really need a table to start with to get any usuable data.

 

[KDog]

Max,
Yes you are on the money.
The Aut uses both a mathematical model of an engine and interpolation. The math function isn't really that difficult once you derive the correct formulae (which is the part slightly beyond me at this stage). Using interpolation will get you some of the way there but not all the way, hence the need for quite few load points.
The task of getting and engine to run a single load point isn't that difficult, actually I could do it with carbies pretty much, but would it run to a satisfactory level?

Autotune is a different method alltogether, you are matching the A/F ratio with those that have been predefined in the A/F table.
I don't believe in autotune, it only does half the job for you.

 

[VWTurbo66]

I'd recommend a WOLF 3D V4. The ONLY part you will have a little trouble setting up is the crank and cam triggering, and there is enough of these combinations working around that between users on the forum you will get things all nutted.

After you've got it running, you'll have twice the MAP load points of an Autronic, more RPM resolution, and if you go with a plus version, up to 5 programmable outputs for controlling water spray or whatever else you can dream up. The new Haltech's are good for a look also as they have some very cool features such as flat shift and anti-lag built in, but I still prefer WOLF for ease of tune.

If you understand how EFI works you'll be very suprised how easy the wolf is to tune.

Cheers,

Ian

 

[Red Supra]

David,
The A340 tranny won't be able to handle 800hp especially with that v8 torque. If you do keep the A340 you will need something to control it unless you want to shift it manually all the time. You can keep the stock ecu and just add more fuel via additional injectors that come on under boost. Chris at CM has a injector box that will do additional fuel and retard timing when in boost.
Or you can call AEM which just happens to be right in your area and setup an appointment and they will set you up with a ecu that will control your trans and run your car. Just don't buy their WB02 controller since it does not control the sensor heater circuit correctly and ruins those bosch o2 sensors in no time.

 

[DonyLingus]

trade secret

Max,
Yes you are on the money.
The Aut uses both a mathematical model of an engine and interpolation. The math function isn't really that difficult once you derive the correct formulae (which is the part slightly beyond me at this stage). Using interpolation will get you some of the way there but not all the way, hence the need for quite few load points.
The task of getting and engine to run a single load point isn't that difficult, actually I could do it with carbies pretty much, but would it run to a satisfactory level?

Autotune is a different method alltogether, you are matching the A/F ratio with those that have been predefined in the A/F table.
I don't believe in autotune, it only does half the job for you.

This is just an

maybe what you are getting at is a relatively simple series of 'IF THAN AND OR' decision trees that decides what sensor readings to use, and more importantly what to ignore, based on the sensor readings themselves. A seperate chip could be used for this and would not require a great deal of processing power. think of it as a vast number of piggyback ECUs limited only by the number possible combinations based on sensor reading 'resolutions' or and/or polling intervals. because physics laws do not change and every engine is the same, the master decision tree would be the same for every engine and would not need to ever be changed unless you changed the sensor reading capabilities of the ECU. and you would find nothing about this in the software either

With that said maybe an analog device that accomplishes the same goal would be much more effective and far easier to control

Just my 2 cents

 

[20B3rdgen]

I agree, the 16x16 resolution isn't its strong suit, but many tuners don't use the full capability of these maps anyway.

The AEM is the only ECU I know of in the same price range, and it does have a 17x21 matrix for its maps, but it's a waste spark system ECU. This 034 is direct fire which IMHO is a huge advantage for ease of starting and lack of backfire.

The Motec's are really nice, but at $4000+ USD they're in another league.
John

The AEM is not a waste spark system ECU on engines all engines. It has 5 coil drivers and 10 injector drivers plus several aux outputs. Any unused injector drivers can be reprogramed to be coil drivers. I an running 6 coils and 6 injectors in full sequential firing on a 3 rotor engine. Normaly in a plug and play setup the unused coil and injector drivers are programed to control emisions, AC compresor, turbo prespool and boost. If you eliminate the most of the emisions(EGR, Cat airpump,etc) you just propram the outputs to do other stuf(coils, injetors). I personaly love the AEM unit.

 

[cribbj]

The AEM is not a waste spark system ECU on engines all engines. It has 5 coil drivers and 10 injector drivers plus several aux outputs. Any unused injector drivers can be reprogramed to be coil drivers. I an running 6 coils and 6 injectors in full sequential firing on a 3 rotor engine. Normaly in a plug and play setup the unused coil and injector drivers are programed to control emisions, AC compresor, turbo prespool and boost. If you eliminate the most of the emisions(EGR, Cat airpump,etc) you just propram the outputs to do other stuf(coils, injetors). I personaly love the AEM unit.

Hmmm, I and every other Supra owner I know who run the AEM on our cars are running it in waste spark mode because of the limited 5 ignition drivers. Additionally, there is some factory jumpering in the back of the Supra 1100 box which hardwires it into waste spark mode. This isn't conjecture but factual information from an AEM engineer. I had asked the same engineer if if was possible to eliminate the hardwiring and use the Coil4 driver for what it was intended, and he indicated it would be a very difficult modification.

You're the first/only person I'm aware of who claims to have reprogrammed other outputs to be coil drivers, and perhaps overcome this factory hardwiring. Care to tell us how you did it?

 

[20B3rdgen]

Here is a link to AEM's web site and it shows how to turn injector driver #10 into the leading coil #3(the sixth coil) on a 20B 3 rotor engine.

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php?topic=14357.0

another link on AEM's forum running 6 coils on a Mazda 20B.

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php?topic=10751.0

Both of these links show injector #10 being reused to drive coil #6. I guess the Toyota guys are not talking to the Mazda guys over at AEM. Hope this helps.:veryhappy

 

[Edwin_S]

The Supra 1100 EMS is not designed to run sequential. Coil 4 & 5 have other dedicated functions (FP and main relay)

The universal EMS can do a 6 channel sequential ingition, but it in not recommended. The reason is that the Inj10 driver responds to the injector fasing maps, and adjusts the timing om coil6 because of that.

 

[20B3rdgen]

The RX-7 ems also has Coil 4 & 5 runnig other dedicated functions, but since I no longer have any emisions it freed them up.

 

[Edwin_S]

That must have required some research right?
Sure it's possible, but it takes some courage to attack a 1500$ ecu

But have you thought about multiplexing?

 

[20B3rdgen]

That must have required some research right?
Sure it's possible, but it takes some courage to attack a 1500$ ecu

But have you thought about multiplexing?

Lots of seaching, a few phone calls.

Multiplexing is the process where multiple channels are combined for transmission over a common transmission path.How is multiplexing important to me running this ems?

 

[Edwin_S]

Multiplexed ignition meens you have 1 channel sending the trigger signal, and 2 or three channels to have the multiplexer to change channel. It's pretty hard to explain in Englissh for me, as i'm dutch, but here goes;

For example; The Supra MKIII turbo uses multiplexing from factory. There's 1 channel to trigger the spark, and 2 channels to switch the igniter channels. eg:

Channel 1 = "trigger" signal
Channels 2&3 0 = no signal to igniter 1 = signal to igniter
00 = channel 1
01 = channel 2
11 = channel 3


But if you use 3 channels to switch ignitor channels, you could get this:

000 = channel 1
001 = channel 2
011 = channel 3
010 = channel 4
100 = channel 5
101 = channel 6
111 = channel 7

So, basically you could run a 7 piston engine sequentially allready (not that there are any, but for example )

And if you take 4 channels to do the multiplexing, you could even do a 12 cylinder sequential ingnition, but then you would have to run the injectors in pairs


I hope this makes any sence to you.

 

[20B3rdgen]

That is a very good explination. The coils on a Supra have an onboard microprocesor the that decodes the stock multiplexed signle the fire the coils, but if you have a have a modified engine you could switch to 6 coils and 6 injectors in full sequencial mode, mybe not with the plug and play AEM because of internal mods, but you can do it with the universal AEM.

 

[Edwin_S]

Exactly! And maybe if you mod the ECU like you did yours, than on any ECU with the AEM15GEN mainboard

P.S. The next version of the AEM (25) will be fitted with 8 coil drivers, so no more problems then.

 

[KazeSupra]

Exactly! And maybe if you mod the ECU like you did yours, than on any ECU with the AEM15GEN mainboard

P.S. The next version of the AEM (25) will be fitted with 8 coil drivers, so no more problems then.

Not to bring back an older thread (again) but do we know when the next version of the AEM will be coming out?