part dry sump using stock pumps

[Tomo]

i am putting a 1uz into my hilux, i need to change from a front sump to a rear.

but i was thinking of using the stock hydraulic fan pump as a scavenger pump, and the stock oil pump to feed from bottom of the oil tank.

also hook up the hydo fan valve solenoid up to the oil level sensor to keep the oil level at the same height.

summary:
1. 10L oil tank
2: stock sump minus steel bowl bit. (flat ally plate)
3: hydo fan pump takes oil from bottom of sump to top of oil tank
4: stock oil pump with pickup going to bottom of oil tank
5: fan pump valve wired into oil level sensor to keep a set oil level
6: electric on/off valve in feed line to stop oil draining into oil pump
7: big ass oil pressure light and gauge.
8: there will be 2 or so litres of oil in the sump aswell

My reasons: clearance, more oil capacity, oil starvation on big angles, and if i remade the sump with a dropped bit at the back it would increse the chances of being hit and getting damaged,

 

[ed_ma61]

id be skeptical that the scavenge part of your system would keep up with the volume required by the pressure half of the system...

 

[quadcam boat]

Cool, good thinking but there is a few things you would need to check up on. I don't think the fan pump would pump enough oil to keep up with the engines oil pump. Also, the fan pump may not prime easily like a proper scavenge pump usually used on dry sump setups, and whenever it sucks air, it may take a while to prime again.
You may have to ditch the fan pump and use a proper one.
Good luck!
Andrew

 

[skid]

Cool, good thinking but there is a few things you would need to check up on. I don't think the fan pump would pump enough oil to keep up with the engines oil pump. Also, the fan pump may not prime easily like a proper scavenge pump usually used on dry sump setups, and whenever it sucks air, it may take a while to prime again.
You may have to ditch the fan pump and use a proper one.
Good luck!
Andrew

Was thinking exactly the same as I read the top post.

I don't know a great deal about dry sump but have been considering it as would save a great deal of hassle on my project as the bottom cross member is very much in the way.

When researching scavenging pumps they came out at £500 or £600 I think, so multiply up by each of your respective funny money rates and you'll gasp at the expense. (actually that may have included the oil & scavange pumps together - still big $£$£$£ though)

I believe the scavenging side is extremely important as a pump, as Andrew posted it can easily be sporadically sucking air as you corner the car and oil surges around the sump. The ability to quickly re-prime and then shift large amounts of oil is important. The pumps I have seen appear to be works of art with high quality materials and toothed belt drives. The last thing in an oil system you want is inferior materials or belt slippage.

However 12 out of 10 for effort and post anything else you think of in this area as I would be interested.

I have been told I don't have to buy the scavange and oil tank pumps, but can just have the scavange and use the engines pump to empty the tank. Not convinced, anyone any thoughts?

By the way there is a US product called Accusump which I believe has a seperate pressurised reserve so should your engine oil pump suck air it immediately pushes reservoired oil into the top of the engine. Some of the Ultima boys here in the UK use it in lieu of a full dry sump set up. Perhaps it could be used with shallow sump set up with out the lower bowl on the 1UZ?

Cheers
Mark

 

[Lambo]

Using Hydraulic fan pump

I have been thinking the same to use the fan pump, it puts out a pressure of 171-356 psi and the outlet pipe is about 16mm o/d maybe someone clever could calculate its flow rate, i would think its up to the task.

Regards
Lambo

 

[Tomo]

yep lambo i say those figures to, and since most oil pumps push <100psi.
and they use 1 inch pipe.
otherwise what about using a electric scavenger pump, was on another thread.

about the air, the sump will still have oil in it up to the full mark, the fan pump would cut in/out when the oil level sensor says it is high/low.
it is not supposed to be a proper dry sump, there will always be oil in the sump up to the full mark.

well if i make it i will do it on the ground first, see how it goes.

 

[Zuffen]

I don't think an electric pump will be happy pumping the oil when its cold as the viscoscity will be too high.

I wouldn't be inclined to turn the pump on/off but let it run all the time. The less times you start it the less times it may not prime.

If you built a small funnel shaped bowl that would hold a couple of litres the fan pump shouldn't suck air as it will always have a reserve.

I read somewhere the oil flow rate of the engine pump is only a few litres per minute which would mean a 10litre tank would run the engine for a couple of minutes (min) before it ran out.

Priming the fan pump will be the hard part.

Hooking the engine oil pump up would be a matter of using a 1" or larger gland inserted in the sump wall and connected with a short flexible oil line to the pump inlet. The outside of the gland connects to the resevoir. I would want an oil level warning system to warn of low oil level in the resevoir.

How about a power steering pump mounted at sump level. That would move the oil!

All in all not a silly idea.

 

[Tomo]

wouldn't be turning the pump on/off just the valve, would operate the same way as the stock fan setup.

 

[Zuffen]

mmm.

Let me think about that one.

How would the pump remain primed? I realise it would keep turning so obviously it has a by-pass system.

This may just work.

Could you try it on/in your engine and not mine! If it works on yours I could be tempted.

 

[Tomo]

yep i will, still on the floor. since the fan doesn't have any probs with oil i can't see my idea having any probs. but yes i will try it with oil pressure gauges and stuff

 

[ed_ma61]

pressure and volume flow are inversely related. just because the fan pump is high pressure, does not mean is moves a lot of fluid. in fact, id be highly suprised if it moved much fluid at all.

dia of the pipes is not any indication of the flow rates in this scenario

 

[cribbj]

Tomo, can you just hookup some external lines to this pump, drop the suction line into a big bucket of oil, and put the discharge line into an empty 10 litre bucket and then time how long it takes to fill up the bucket, holding engine RPM constant?

This would also make it easy to determine if the pump will self prime - lift the suction line out of the oil bucket, wait 'till there's no more oil coming out the discharge, then drop the suction line back in again and see if it'll catch its prime. That's pretty important if you're considering using it for scavenge duty.

 

[Tomo]

fan pump 'will not pump air' people. and will not turn off.

but yes testing the fan pump volume first i will do that.

 

[cribbj]

Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood; I thought you said in your first post that you were looking to use the stock fan pump for a scavenge pump?

If it's in true scavenge duty, it frequently will be sucking more air than oil, so issues of priming as well as "pumping air" really should be some of your considerations. In fact, most good dry sump systems incorporate an oil/air separator after the pump because there's so much air entrained in the oil during the scavenging process.

 

[Tomo]

yes well i couldn't think of another word for it. sump to oil tank pump perhaps.

anyway i got the fan pump checked out today should flow 12L/min of oil at 1000rpm

 

[skid]

Tomo,

The sump to oil tank is effectively the scavange pump.
Out of interest I looked for Dry sump stuff off ebay last night and there are a few bargains to be had. Having put so much effort into you engine to go home made and unproven on something as imprtant as the oil supply is a big risk.

I would atleast buy a new or second hand pumps (and recondition). Sure the rest can be home made or other sources.

The fan pump may flow 12l/min but how will it cope with a few air interruptions???
I'm impressed with your ingenuity to give it a go but generally worried you could lunch your engine.
Cheers
M

 

[Tomo]

if the scavenge pump gets air then the stock setup would get air to, ya with me?

but i will test it and see if it can self prime, and just generally work. but if testing fails then i will just mod my sump and pickup to a rear type.

i have a old fire extinguisher bottle which i got from work which i shall use a a tank for testing.. all i need to do is get some hoses made. figure out the wiring harness add some fuel, then we're away, i am picking up my engine and stuff from the w'shop today and bring them home.

 

[T]

dry sump systems are fairly complex to set up - you need to make sure you have the right sort of scavenge pumps & a properly designed oil tank to remove the aeration from the oil, or you will blow the engine up.

accessory pumps are designed for very low volume, high pressure, exactly the opposite of what you need.

i know people have managed to machine up scavenge pumps using holden 202 pump gears, or reusing the pump gears out of other toyota oil pumps (plenty of neat toyota pumps obtainable - look at the 4age pumps for instance)

regardless of how "on the cheap" you do this, it will be expensive - the hose fittings are the most expensive part

T

 

[Tomo]

good thing i get trade prices then. but u guys are really trying your best to turn me off though.

 

[quadcam boat]

Mate, go for it.
Sounds like it has enough volume, just confirm that it will self prime!
Have a look at some drysump setups, and copy their resovior oil tank setups. Most seem to be simple and have a de-aeration design by the swirling effect as the oil enters the tank. Have a google for drysump boats as they are usaully set well aside from the engine as you can get a good look at them in a photo.
Good luck,
Andrew