1UZ-FE Supercharged or Turbocharged ?

[XSW]

Hello guys,

Let me first introduce myself, my name is Octav and I'm located in Romania, Europe.

Among other things I plan on participating in this years King of Europe Drift Series and other drift & time attack events, local or european. My competition car is a Nissan S13 200sx (the fast-back, 180sx in japan, 240sx in the states, 200sx in europe) currently powered by a SR20DET but since I'm here it's obvious that that particular engine will be pulled out and swapped for a nice little 1UZ-FE. Didn't want to go the 1/2JZ or RB way because the V8s are shorter and lighter therefore it will not upset the very good balance of the S13 chasis.

I am currently looking for a Soarer or LS400 with this engine in the UK, I have a plane ticket booked on the first of February so I have plenty of time to find a decently good car.

This is more of a test run and if I like the 1UZ and it's potential I will definitely build up a Soarer V8 as well but for now I'm interested in swapping the engine to the S13.

If anyone's interested here's my build thread on DW : http://www.driftworks.com/forum/drift-car-projects-builds/130713-nissan-200sx-s13-sr20det-performance-road-drift-project.html

Anyway, enough introduction already.

As most of us that are passionate about engines I have a few forced induction configurations in mind but since I don't have any sort of experience with this engine other than what I read, I'd really appreciate some assistance/suggestions.

My end goal is to obtain somewhere around 400whp and a ton of torque available throughout the rev band (which is what I actually need, not hp). The engine will be mated to a R154 box which I already have so it should be able to cope with that power.

So far I already got a set of 6 7MGTE 440cc low impedance injectors and I'm looking to buy 6 more, I understand that they can be used on the 1UZ with adaptations, the rest of the fuelling part shouldn't be a big deal (040 etc).

My main concern is weather to go single turbo, twin turbo, single supercharger or twin supercharger (like the guy that was building up a 1UZ with two mini M45s). The variables are simple, very restricted engine bay space of the S13, around 400whp with stock rpm (because it will see the rev limit a lot) and very decent reliability.

I'm a nothing is impossible kind of guy and I'm not in a rush to do the swap so I can work on the engine while it's still in the donor car or pulled out. However I don't want to go over the top with the expenses, I want to have most of the stuff custom fabricated and only buy what I can't fabricate (injectors, turbo etc.).

So here are the configurations I had in mind.

1. Twin turbo
==========
2x T25, T28 or the more expensive GT2871R with twinscroll turbine housing (awesome spool but expensive). All in ~.60 trim.
- Downside : Not sure if I'll have enough space in the engine bay for this

2. Single turbo
===========
Not my first choice, would still need to calculate which turbo would be best, probably a T4 or a large compressor T3. Not much research done on this.
- Downside : a lot of complicated piping and not sure if it'll fit

3. Single supercharger v1
===================
M112 Eaton off a Jag V8 or Ford Cobra, would be the cheapest way to do it but to run any sort of decent boost I'd probably need water/methanol injection which is not an option for me, I want things to run mechanically and reliably, just put in the gas. I don't have experience with twinscrew superchargers so if I'm wrong please correct me.
- Downside : not sure if I can reach my desired power figures, ugly extruded bonnet (which I could live with)

4. Single supercharger v2
===================
Vortech V2 or some other Vortech centrifugal supercharger. These are quite expensive but I would be willing to shell out the cash because I can air-air intercool it and it's quite easy to fit and find a place for. I wouldn't want the V1 as it's extremely loud and not exactly my style, I can live with a loud exhaust but not with such high pitch whine.
- Downside : not sure if I can reach my desired power figures, expensive

5. Twin supercharger
===================
There are quite a few small superchargers (G60 VW, M45 or larger Eaton) that could be used as a pair on this engine. I can't say I've done a ton of research on this as there aren't many such builds around. However it does have the advantage of being able to air-air intercool the setup.
- Downside : hard to think such a setup would fit, not sure if I can reach my desired power figures,

As most of you probably know Cometic does make some head gaskets for the 1UZ and is also able to custom build any thickness at a decent price so hopefully that should help with lowering the CR and attaining the power goals.

I don't know what else to say, I already wrote a huge post and I hope I haven't bored you. I just really hope you guys can help me out with some ideas and opinions.

Cheers,
Octav

 

[XR8tt]

Thought of mild cam, GOOD valve springs 12 to 1 compression and running C16???
Or similar fuel in your area....
4.4 final drive should have torque where you want it ???

 

[XSW]

Hello,

Thank you for your answer. Unfortunately there's no exotic fuels here and even worse so their quality is not that great. The car would be tuned for 95 octane petrol. There's also an issue with the diff, my current final drive is 4.03 which is decently short, I don't think I'd be able to find a diff that is shorter.

I would need real engine torque, not obtained through the transmission de-multiplication, this is because there are tracks where you shouldn't change gear and still smoke the tires from a relatively low speed in third. For ex. Mariapocs. The SR20DET is a very capable engine which you can get to 350whp relatively easily and you can drift it really well. Unfortunately though it lacks the monster torque required to smoke the tires a lot for the spectacle of it all and higher "impression" marks. In the same situation where a FI V8 would smoke the hell out of the tires and just go even at lower rpms you'd need to clutch kick the heck out of the SR to get it in boost.

I explained all this so that you understand why I have to go forced induction.

There's something I forgot to mention but I will need to do some further research on this. Can bike throttle bodies be adapted to each bank ? I was thinking R1 TBs.

Also, in regards to management I already have a Greddy E-manage Ultimate which I purchased for the SR. Greddy doesn't seem to officially support this but I've read of people recommending this piggyback for use with the 1UZ. Has anyone actually used it ?

Cheers,
Octav

 

[XR8tt]

Hmm ?? My concern is rotating assembly with rpm load etc..
A Pro charger or 66 to 70mm turbo ??? With water / meth injection for induction cooling ???
With forged rotating assembly...

 

[JustenGT8]

Just go TT......proven as the easiest and most reliable combo for the hp you are looking at. If Audi or other Euro that use K04 are cheap your way then there's another turbo option.....in fact you can get a pair brand new off Ebay for approx $800US!! they will be responsive as hell too

My MUCH larger K26/27s are still very responsive, you drift with them easy...in fact i have

 

[XSW]

Hello again and thank you for your input. At the moment twin turbo is indeed my top preference. As you well put it the older RS6 V8 TT is an all-round great engine so I should be able go get close to it's specs with the 1UZ by adding TT. Same turbo location wouldn't fit in the S13 but can be tweaked to do so.

What would you suggest as far as exhaust header routing for a TT setup ? Taking into account the small S13 engine bay of course and I doubt a read-bottom location of the turbos like on the SR20DET would fit.

I have a pair of K03s in the garage (for a BMW M52 engine) but these are way too small. I was thinking T25s like on the Red Top SR20DET because I really like them on my current engine and they're quite cheap unlike the more sought after T28 or GT28 which are ball bearing. The trouble with new & cheap ebay turbos is that they're chinese and even though they did make a lot of progress reliability wise as time went by, I for one would rather go for Garett, IHI, KKK, even second hand ones. Then again if I'd buy straight from china I could get 4 GT2871R clones for pretty much the price of a single garett and have two spares if they fail. I won't be putting too many miles on them anyway since it's not exactly a daily driver with solid motor & tranny mounts

@XR8tt - I don't see the point of changing the internals for just 400hp, lower compression and a good tune should suffice. however if I decide I will need to go higher (doubtful) it will indeed be a necessity.

And again, thank you for your input, there are not many forums where you get help and ideas this quickly, that's for sure.

Cheers,
Octav

 

[cribbj]

Octav welcome to Lextreme; we enjoy discussing projects like yours!

JustenGT8 is one of our guys who enjoys proving the laws of physics wrong He has produced more low end torque with his TT configuration than any of us have done with our Roots superchargers, although I suspect that's actually more a testimony to his fabrication & preparation skills than proving physics wrong.

In theory, you should have balls of torque on instant demand with a positive displacement supercharger such as an M112 or a twinscrew, while again in theory, the turbo setup is going to have "some" lag. In the real world however, Justen claims the lag of his turbo setup was nearly nonexistent, and the TT made more power and is the better setup. And he's the only one here who has done it both ways, so far, and in the same car, so no one's disputing him!

You'll certainly have more plumbing to do with a turbo setup, but you seem to be a handy person, so that shouldn't be a show stopper for you.

Those of us with twinscrew and Eaton setups really need to do our homework better, 'cause the results so far with the 1UZ certainly favors the turbo setups.

 

[JustenGT8]

I wouldn't argue if he went twinscrew John I'm sure yours will have the capacity to match the turbos down low, but compared to a pair of used T25 turbos? the bang for buck factor is hard to argue against eh? For 'only' 400rwhp Octav could get away with the stock exhaust manifolds (if they will fit) but even having to make some is cheap in materials if you can do it yourself.

China spec 600x300x100 core will fit and is also dead cheap. The real dollars will be the ECU and fueling support but that will be needed however you try and get 400rwhp.

Go for it i say

 

[XSW]

@cribbj

Thank you for the welcome ! I will gladly showcase all the mods here and as I will get accustomed to the 1UZ try to help others but now as you can see I'm just doing my homework as I will be picking the actual car up in 2 weeks No harm in being prepared and having a plan though, is it ?

I would favor the TT setup as well for my needs simply because (in my mind) I can just compare it to two SR20DET engines running simultaneously. And with a relatively small turbo (T25/T28/GT2871R) it's extremely responsive with virtually no lag. I don't see why a V8 with two of these wouldn't be as responsive.

I also enjoy the flexibility of a turbo setup and ability to finely tune the boost and progressively tune the engine, not to mention the ability to have multiple maps for different situations. I am a flexible person though and remain open to all possible options

For the (rare) cases where I'll need torque at upto 2.5-3k rpm I still have a V8 on a really light body and try to drive it out if it's not sufficient, while over 2.5-3k (depending on the turbo setup) it should decimate the rear tires.

Keep in mind the S13 has a very light rear-end so smoking the tires should be quite easy even with the stock 350Nm (SR produces 265Nm stock).

And sorry guys I hope I didn't upset anyone when I said "just 400 hp", it's not that I'm used with higher figures, it's just that we're talking 100 hp/liter forced induction, it's not exactly extreme. At least not compared to the old HKS drag supra that ran this engine with 1500hp

Cheers,
Octav

 

[XSW]

@JustenGT8

I would rather make custom headers as this seems to really count on the 1UZ. I'm not going with the dirt cheap approach necessarily, just don't want to pay excessively more than I should to reach my target. A pair of custom (properly made) headers is 200 euros here, that's about $280, which is not that bad.

As I mentioned earlier I already have a new e-manage ultimate piggyback but haven't really had the time to do some research on it's aplication on the 1UZ. Worst case scenario I'll skip a step and just go with a stand-alone like the open-source Megasquirt, there are people here that know how to install and tune it quite well and it's not extremely expensive either. It's just that it takes a while since I don't think any of them did a 1UZ.

In regards to fuelling I think a Bosch 040 would suffice and it's not extremely expensive. Right now I have a new Walbro 255 but I don't mind oversizing. Of course a FPR will be fitted

Do you have a wideband on your setup ? If so, where is it located ?

Cheers,
Octav

 

[JustenGT8]

My O2 sensor is just in one of the dump pipes but it's only used during a tune session and no run all the time. The Autronic ECU is pretty stable so no need for constant closed loop.

 

[XR8tt]

If the tuner is good he can run the boost controller through your TPS so it won't boost too hard mid rpm...As in bring on boost at lower rpm then in upper rpm it dumps boost to get some sort of grip or speed from your chassis depending on TPS at WOT it doesn't dump at set lower boost .. Helps protect engine and less time on rev limiter...
Looks like your going to have another puffing 1UZ they are getting a little long in the tooth now...
I would like to see a good centrifugal where higher rpm works better...

 

[cribbj]

A pair of custom (properly made) headers is 200 euros here, that's about $280, which is not that bad.

Cheers,
Octav

Group Buy!!!!

 

[BigKriss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QPFJTD-4Zo

Octav, This is what a properly built SR20Dett can do in a Sr 13 and Sr 14 Nissan.

For your info here..
Cheers..

 

[BigKriss]

Mmm, ok, so that should be S13 or S14...

 

[XR8tt]

Drifting puts big load on engine, transmission..
Half shafts on these mighty Nissan's break quite easy..

 

[XSW]

Hello guys,

Great news, it's now official, I'm the owner of a nice little V8 Soarer I can't wait to go collect it on the 1st Feb.

@XR8tt

Thank you for the suggestion, that was actually the plan, have the drift ecu configuration run less boost in the upper RPM range and have another time attack setting that will not lower the boost. Once a drift is initiated you need far less torque to keep it going close to the rev limiter. We'll see I guess, these are details that have to be sorted out at the end of the build then tweaked and improved over time.

@JustenGT8

Thank you for the details. Aren't you worried that the other bank might have different AFR values ? I know chances are slim but it's possible. I plan on running the wideband all the time since I want to make sure I can do my best to prevent engine damage. As you know there are many variables in an engine, and many things that can go wrong and cause it to run lean on boost. I guess I'm a bit paranoid

Innovate advises the mounting of the O2 sensor 18-24 inches from the turbo which might not be possible even if I go 8-2-1-2 because it will be way too far. So I guess I'll have to buy another wideband and have one for each bank as I initially planned.

@cribbj

Hehe, shipping these would cost quite a bit of money and I doubt they have the production capability among all their clients for many of these. However if my setup will be good and reliable and if there's demand we could make a complete twin-turbo kit. After all the electronics are set up we can then try and adapt/write them to the toyota/lexus ecu. At that point it should be pretty much plug&play (or plug&pay hehe).

@BigKriss

Thank you for the link, however believe me when I say I know all too well what the potential the SR20DET and the S-body Nissans have. I'm not saying (and never will) the SR is a weak motor, it's an amazing one and can be pushed really far. It won't matter it's just a 2L (max 2.4L stroked) on a time attack run (circuit/touge) because in this case all you need is horsepower and it can produce plenty with the right amount of cash thrown at it. Drifting however is another story, torque and torque band are king here, there's a reason why most professional drifters go for big engines instead of the small ones. Besides, I still have another S14 with a SR as a backup car, wanted to do something a little different.

@XR8tt

So true ... that's why I'll buy some Skyline half-shafts or try get some seriously reinforced ones fabricated.


Thank you for all your input so far, it's been very helpful. Please keep it coming, whatever's on your mind in regards to 1UZ FI. I am doing a lot of research myself and since I'm a dumb idiot of course I'm thinking of all the weird possible scenarios, like ITBs with a custom plenum. Hopefully I'll come to my senses and realize keeping it simple is best for my power goals

Cheers,
Octav

 

[slipway]

get rid of that dirty nissan and skid the soarer!

 

[cribbj]

Congrats on your purchase!

I think a GP of well made turbo headers from Romania could be very interesting and cost effective. I would only ask that they be done with quality and longevity as the guiding factors, not price.

When/if you're willing to do this, let us know and we'll probably have some helpful suggestions to avoid problems.

For example, a good set of turbo headers really should be done from 321SS, not mild steel, nor 304SS.

BTW, AEM make a nice dual channel WBAFR controller, and since it doesn't have a load of extra features that you probably don't need or want, it's priced fairly reasonably.

 

[JustenGT8]

nah, i think 5 years of various track days and general thrashing demonstrate the tune was good In fact i only lost the engine once i started playing silly buggers with the fuel and i doubt a wideband would have saved me as it wasn't lean. Not saying a wideband isn't a good idea though